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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2017 - 23:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Cloggy wrote:
So are you saying that a change that encourages people to play agile teams and try to score a lot instead of elfstalling is a bad thing?

Sounds pretty good to me to be honest Smile


Look it's not bad. I guess I am just commenting that the new system is moving away from a metric that looks at "skill" as the ability to win games, and moves it towards a system designed to get people to play in a certain way.

Also, aquestion, but is the same scoring system used in box (where you can't choose your opponent)? Overly punishing CR gaps in coaches (beyond the gap implied chance of victory) seems prejudicial as you can't choose your opponent in box...

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Miceycraft



Joined: Nov 10, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 01:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
Cloggy wrote:
So are you saying that a change that encourages people to play agile teams and try to score a lot instead of elfstalling is a bad thing?

Sounds pretty good to me to be honest Smile


Look it's not bad. I guess I am just commenting that the new system is moving away from a metric that looks at "skill" as the ability to win games, and moves it towards a system designed to get people to play in a certain way.

Also, aquestion, but is the same scoring system used in box (where you can't choose your opponent)? Overly punishing CR gaps in coaches (beyond the gap implied chance of victory) seems prejudicial as you can't choose your opponent in box...


First thing to say... Thanks Christer for everything as always. Well thought through changes are always worth while as far as I am concerned.

As for the two points raised I have a couple of counter thoughts.

1) Increased incentive to play agile - bash teams can still score high by removing opposing players and walking in the TDs after they pitch clear. More agile teams just makes skills like tackle perform better. In BB I feel there is almost always a counter.

2) CR' in box will punish coaches - coaches choose to play box. If a legend dork coach loses to a rookie gob team it is only fair they lose a lot of CR. 'Truley legend' coaches should very rarely lose to a rookie (dice pending).

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 05:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Agile teams have a higher expected win rate, in general, they're all good teams, so you need to score more for the same CR shift.

Example, if Dwarfs are around 50% expected wins, and say Woodies around 60% expected, Woodies would thus lose a bit of CR on a tie, and the rest are like the score bonus one step lower, so the Woodies have to win by 3+ to shift CR as much as Dorfs winning by 2, or perhaps Pact winning by 1.

But in general, the best way to shift your CR is beating legend (and superstar) coaches, that counts for vastly more shift than winning by an extra TD every now and then.

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The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 07:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm just typing out some thoughts, wondering if they are true, inviting disagreement.

Any coach not activly trying to increase his 'CR' will not have his actions influenced or altered by this new system. Coaches unconcerned with their own CR are personally unaffected.

So when we discuss this rating system's ability to encourage something, (like agility play over bash play) or discourage something (like noob hunting) we are only discussing it as relavent to the sub-set of FUMBBL players who are activly trying to manage their own CR.

Is this a significant portion of the FUMBBL population? Are that many coaches trying to manage their CR?

I would suggest one of THE most significant aspects of 'cherry-picking' is the attempt to avoid damage to one's favorite team, to farm stars for a tournament, etc. This is not mutally exclusive with trying to also increase one's CR, but I would submit there are plenty of coaches who disregard CR and still 'cherry-pick' for easy wins for the less risky SPP.

What do people do more of, and what is most harmful?

A) Cherry pick for CR. B) Cherry pick for wins. C) Cherry-pick for injury-free SPP and growth. D) 'Cherry pick' for a specific type of match they enjoy (such as agility vs. agility, or their bash vs. squishy stuff)

If I understand correctly, what is trying to be discouraged with the new system is the people artifically inflating their ratings by simply waiting for noobs on Gamefinder. So this change makes catagory A class picking much more dangerous for one's CR if one's preferred target is noobs.

If that is true.. does the new system hit it's mark? Are their any side effects?

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Jeguan



Joined: Jan 25, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 11:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Sorry, but if we are done here? can't say I'm a fan. And I'm talking about the new ranking system, not about being fan of FUMBBL or Big C, I would vote Big C for President.

If you win Tour de France in road cycling, it doesn't make you no. 1 on UCI ranking, but you come very close. If you also win Vuelta a Espana, you are ranked even better. Chris Froome is ranked 2 currently, only Greg van Avermaet is higher, and he had some seriously good results himself. That makes sence. Even though, you can argue, that Chris Froome should be no. 1. Nerver the lees, you can argue that the system makes sence.

If you win the FUMBBL Cup on FUMBBL, should that make you no. 1 on FUMBBL? I would say no, but it should make you close I would say. If you win FUMBBL cup with Necromantic, should that make you no. 1 Necromantic coach on FUMBBL? well, it should make you very close to no. 1 I would say. Nicodaz is no. 47 on Necromantic coach ranking... https://fumbbl.com/p/coaches?order=&r=53&d=0&start=1

How to become the best Norse coach ever on FUMBBL?

You play 1 match 14 years ago against goblins https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=8679 and then voila https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches&order=&d=0&r=54

Well, it doesn't make sence in my head.

And it makes even less sence, that the change is made retroactively. In Tennis, the World Champion is typically the one ending the year as no. 1 ranked. But if you dramatically change the ranking system retroactively, you have to proclaim new World Champions like 20 years back.... If you change the speed limit from 50 to 40 km/h, you don't send out fines to people who drove 50 km/h in that area 5 years ago.

The changes made here, I would say it is very unlikely, that the coach ending 2016 as no 1 on FUMMBL(or 2004 or 2012 for that matter), is the same today as it was yesterday.

Yesterday I was a Necromantic Legend here on FUMBBL, if I remember correct, being round 10-20 on Necromantic Coach ranking, mainly by playing official tournaments with this team: https://fumbbl.com/p/team?id=729734 latest making it to the main event of GLT. Today I'm an Emerging Star and no. 556 on that list... https://fumbbl.com/p/coaches?order=&r=53&d=0&start=18

And I still vote Big C for President Smile
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 11:16 Reply with quote Back to top

i think something is not right

chaos dwarfs, 14th best overall coach is

14 KhorneliusPraxx 7 (14) 1/0/6 153.64

7 games, 1 win 6 losses....
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches&order=&d=0&r=43
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 11:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Somehow my CR went up with the new system so I love it. Wink

There is no perfect system but I appreciate the effort. I will not complain about a site that brings me so much enjoyment.

@Murker. If even a few people pick cherries to bring up there CR this is a good improvement. Sure others will have different reasons to pick but lets see how this shakes out.
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 12:04
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

I have identified an issue and will be rerunning the script that updates the rankings. At the same time, I am adding a bit more information to the ranking history table in the database which will allow me to investigate specifics about why a given match affected CR the way it did.
Candlejack



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 12:26 Reply with quote Back to top

yay, another three hours of "watch your cr bounce" Smile this is quite some fun *g*

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Prez



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 13:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Its only taken 14 years, but I'm finally No1 Wink

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Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 13:35 Reply with quote Back to top

CR should only measure coach skill IMO, not other things.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 13:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Tricktickler wrote:
CR should only measure coach skill IMO, not other things.


If you can figure out how to do that, please let us know.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 13:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Will ever a form of CR decay be added?
That means that if you are inactive in a competitive division for some time your CR slowly decreases (or you disappear from that division's rankings until you play again a game in that division with that race).
That to prevent inactive coaches with few games played with a race to sit forever in the rankings.
Many modern games use ELO/rankings decay to prevent the stagnation.

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Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 13:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Of course it's hard to reach perfect accuracy (although I do have some pretty good suggestions) but there is no reason to diverge from it on purpose.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 15, 2017 - 14:04 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Will ever a form of CR decay be added?
That means that if you are inactive in a competitive division for some time your CR slowly decreases (or you disappear from that division's rankings until you play again a game in that division with that race).
That to prevent inactive coaches with few games played with a race to sit forever in the rankings.
Many modern games use ELO/rankings decay to prevent the stagnation.


I think this must exist. Emeyin is my favorite Dark/high elf coach on the site but he has not been active in a while. Despite his W/D/L ratio he disappeared from the rankings last time I checked.
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