The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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 Posted:
Jun 30, 2012 - 20:53 |
 
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PC wrote:"(Christer) has stated before 'policy' and 'vision' statements, but i cant be arsed to find them."
I've done a moderate site search and havn't turned anything up. My forum search skills are terrible.
I just thought it was a good starter on the GOALS theme. What are Christer's objectives here? Maybe someone knew where they had been stated before, or knew him personally and had insight into origins and ultimates.
Unless he games here under a different name, I'd say he might be in it more for management practice, or sharpening programming and or website creation skills, etc. etc. And hopefully not in areas or at a pace that is anything but enjoyable, if it is a hobby. If he stopped enjoying it.. not good for any of us.
What would your objectives be if you ran the site? |
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Ehlers
Joined: Jun 26, 2006
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Jul 01, 2012 - 01:50 |
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If I remember correct Christer use this as his hobby. A place where he can tweak around with codes which just happens to field right into the creation and maintaining a website like FUMBBL. Combining his love for code and Blood Bowl. And Christer is not a hardcore gamer like some of the rest, but more use this for casual games here and then. Plus he play other games beside Blood Bowl.
And while the client might not be 100% accurate to the rules, then it is pretty close to the official rules. And in my opinion you will find top tier blood players here because of the amount of games they can get in a very short time. And the few skills lacking does not hinder you to learn how to position, chainpush, 1turner TD etc. in order to become a top tier player.
And the goal was in the start to setup a place for people to record their games into a league in the start or something along those lines.
| The_Murker wrote: | IF however, the goal were to make available a great place to play the most enjoyable version of a Blood Bowl TYPE game that fantasy football lovers could come up with.. I dunno. I think this group would be the best suited by far to tweek an original game we all love. And with one supreme commander who controls all aspects (rightly so) it could be a reality, with some careful tinkering.
Thoughts? |
So basically what I get is that you want a rule change to the CRP right in order to make it into a great fun place. So first I assume you dont like CRP at all. Secondly why cant both exist? Cant FUMBBL be the place where top tier coaches battle it out while still house-rules are run along the same time?
YES is the answer. AND yes this is already possible now.
But no one have the time nor the energy to stand up and make this happen in league. Kalimar and his team already have implementet so many house-rules changes. So IF someone think something is WRONG then STEP UP and do something about it in league.
A very wise FUMBBL named Ro told me something:
Do it yourself or else it wont happen. |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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Jul 01, 2012 - 02:33 |
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I'm not saying unofficial changes would be a good thing. They could well be. But the effects are unknown. Yes, people can set up leagues with very cool customizations. FUMBBL rocks as is. This thread's intent was just me typing out very good reasons FUMBBL might not want to tinker with rules, ever.
Contrarily, I also stated FUMBBL alone would be the place to test smart rule mods and collect data on that as well. I think we have enough players that people would fight it out to become top of the box, even if it wasn't CRP. Many would disagree. Neither side has hard evidence. Christer has mentioned a CLAWPOM issue before, but no move has been put forth, so for now it seems to me the status quo is more favorable than the unknown. I don't disagree. It's not my sandbox. (but I like studying the sandbox)
Moving on, when looking for articles on FUMBBL goals, one thing I did come across was the Blackbox Division Summary page. There it mentions fairness twice, as well as "not being for the faint of heart." These two statements (goals?) I feel conflict with the current way the scheduler is set up. (felt sorry, this next part isn't new)
I've spent about as much time studying law as I have my own belly-button, and the SPIRIT of things is what SHOULD fundamentally matter the most. Certainly in a dictatorship where the head honcho knows very well what he meant. That link would have me believe "rough but fair" is the intent of the division. Goal even.
I've always felt that by looking at race on race win/loss data, and using an element of that to decide on the matches generated, that the schedule fails a bit in both these regards. It seeks to protect some races from their arch enemies to a certain extent, and that isn't rough. It's pandering. It also, as a side effect, has a necessary factor to discourage like races from playing each other. When applied to goblins and halflings, that isn't fair. Yadda-yadda. We've been there before. No changes wanted by Big C.
However, my renewed interest in the scheduler comes from the recently "sharpened" min/max tactic of getting killer clawpomb players on sub-1000 TV teams and creating some matches where one coach has no chance whatsoever. This flies so contrary to the fairness principal I felt we all understood, I was frankly surprised by a lack of reaction on Christer's part. Or maybe it's just lack of action at this time.
It just has my curiousity peaked at the moment. I'm rethinking everything I get out of playing Blood Bowl, wondering if I'd enjoy anything about winning in such a fashion, as well as thinking about trying other aspects of the game. More to follow. |
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Igvy
Joined: Apr 29, 2007
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Jul 01, 2012 - 03:17 |
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You forget, sooner or later fumbbl will be the largest, most used league, which everyone will use as a source of reference. Once that happens the rules we use, will become the offical rules.
Remember at the moment the rules for bloodbowl are abandoned, games workshop doesn't even support it anymore; cyniade is dying, and when it does who will be left? Fumbbl will be it. Once that happens, the future of the game rests with fumbbl.
We already have the best players, they might not play so much these days, but they are there. What we are currently missing is the masses. |
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Lorebass
Joined: Jun 25, 2010
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Sorry man, i dont have $100-$200 to get my own pitch and especially teams(more than 3 please! and i know it COULD be cheaper but who wants to play with cardboard duttouts nowadays) let alone the time to paint them. What would happen if this site didn't exist?? So stop moaning. but anyways back on the subject of goals... ULTIMATE DEFEAT OF AZURE!!! <<<Thats mine at least. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 01, 2012 - 09:27 |
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| Ehlers wrote: |
So basically what I get is that you want a rule change to the CRP right in order to make it into a great fun place. So first I assume you dont like CRP at all. Secondly why cant both exist? Cant FUMBBL be the place where top tier coaches battle it out while still house-rules are run along the same time?
YES is the answer. AND yes this is already possible now.
But no one have the time nor the energy to stand up and make this happen in league. Kalimar and his team already have implementet so many house-rules changes. So IF someone think something is WRONG then STEP UP and do something about it in league.
A very wise FUMBBL named Ro told me something:
Do it yourself or else it wont happen. |
This isn't quite true me and another coach are running two house rule leagues and they are going great. So if anyone wants to join let me know I think there will be 4 places available in hubba2 next season so get involved. They are great fun  |
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Ehlers
Joined: Jun 26, 2006
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Jul 01, 2012 - 13:00 |
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| Garion wrote: |
This isn't quite true me and another coach are running two house rule leagues and they are going great. So if anyone wants to join let me know I think there will be 4 places available in hubba2 next season so get involved. They are great fun |
Oki fair enough, but this is a schedule league right?
What I get from Murker is that the current CRP rules are not good enough and a common set of house rules should be created that take over from CRP (sort of like FUMBBL BB RULES). To my knowledge there is no single league that has the solo purpose testing the new house-rules Kalimar&CO. is testing and asking for changes to existing skills etc.
I might sound negatively, but for how many times do we have these threads debating changes to CRP and the state of Blackbox?
| The_Murker wrote: | | I've always felt that by looking at race on race win/loss data, and using an element of that to decide on the matches generated, that the schedule fails a bit in both these regards. It seeks to protect some races from their arch enemies to a certain extent, and that isn't rough. It's pandering. It also, as a side effect, has a necessary factor to discourage like races from playing each other. When applied to goblins and halflings, that isn't fair. Yadda-yadda. We've been there before. No changes wanted by Big C. |
CRP Goblins are better of in CRP than LRB4 IMO. It is not the scheduler that is the problem when goblin is going in it is the team is weaker compared to other teams. Having tried to some extent to get a competitively goblin team going I would say it is not always preferable to be the underdog as a goblin team. Playing up in TV sometimes can be something you would avoid and sometimes you would want it. It would be so hard to make a scheduler that match goblins fair with other teams without creating advantage or disadvantage to other match ups beside goblins. Goblins should get another troll or be allowed to sneak in extra goblins on the field to be more competitively. That is the only way to make goblins more stronger.
| The_Murker wrote: | | However, my renewed interest in the scheduler comes from the recently "sharpened" min/max tactic of getting killer clawpomb players on sub-1000 TV teams and creating some matches where one coach has no chance whatsoever. This flies so contrary to the fairness principal I felt we all understood, I was frankly surprised by a lack of reaction on Christer's part. Or maybe it's just lack of action at this time. |
I don’t think it is lack on Christer’s part. But of all the debate going around no one has yet made a better scheduler than the current one. No matter what scheduler you have it can be gamed. Christer is busy with overhaul of ranked finder and new league structure. The problem right now with BlackBox scheduler will be fixed with the ranked finder. Basicly people are lazy why they use the black box to get fast games. Peopleleft the blackbox in the past and played ranked because of heavy fouler dirtyplayer teams and nasty claw&razor chaos teams.
If you don’t want to face those killer clawpomb sub-1000TV teams in the blackbox, go and play ranked. The blackbox offer exactly what it always have. Fast games where people metagame it on the basis that you get pared by TV. This means that some people pick skills and stats so that their team are better at a TV range than others who want to pick weak skills. Also why str stats sometimes are turned down due to it add so much TV to your team. No matter what scheduler you will always have min/max teams as in minimize death weight and maximized killer/win chance. |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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Jul 01, 2012 - 13:30 |
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Ehlers, I'm not trying to say anything about the rules. They are what they are. And I would clearly state my point if I had one. I'm just fishing for thoughts on FUMBBL. We can all agree it's awsome. Unique, etc. |
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Join the wait-list. Watch the action. Leave the Empire. Come to Bretonnia! |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jul 01, 2012 - 13:32 |
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| Igvy wrote: | You forget, sooner or later fumbbl will be the largest, most used league, which everyone will use as a source of reference. Once that happens the rules we use, will become the offical rules.
Remember at the moment the rules for bloodbowl are abandoned, games workshop doesn't even support it anymore; cyniade is dying, and when it does who will be left? Fumbbl will be it. Once that happens, the future of the game rests with fumbbl. |
Darkson & Co would love this. 
CRP is an issue on Fumbbl because Ranked, Black Box and Cyanide MM play the game differently to everyone else.
Even on Fumbbl Black Box, the division where the issues are most obvious is still the division that does the most business.
I play in the Box and don't have any problem with it. Maybe that is because I play it pretty much as I would a normal league. e.g.
I only play once or twice a week.
I don't keep restarting my teams. i.e. They press on to 1600-1800TV where to me the Box seems to work very well.
I don't get as far as the heavy CPOMB zone because of normal attrition and keeping the team fairly lean.
If you are going to match by TV and place a lot of weight on high TV Majors then you probably should use a different TV formula than we have now. That shouldn't be a surprise as TV matching is a house rule that Galak has explicitly said was not taken into account at all.
Galak also was apparently keen to restrict access to high TV.
so, there is a case for some Fumbbl divisions to use different rules. But there is no real need for anyone else to follow them.
It is great that we are getting plenty of rule options in [L] but [L] was never really going to be where the main issues showed themselves.
| Igvy wrote: |
We already have the best players, they might not play so much these days, but they are there. What we are currently missing is the masses. |
I don't know if 'the masses' really care what the 'best players' want. What percentage of the site are really that worried about going deep in the Majors? Personally I didn't play high TV under LRB4. If anything I'd be more interested now.
My gut feel from eyeballing my pages is the current game is less balanced at high TV.
But how many games are really played up there? I don't see any 2000+ teams in WIL Prem. I haven't been following the Majors. How big are those teams these days?
Maybe some people even like the idea that more average Joes can make an impact on the Majors.
Fumbbl has it's own issues so ideally would use it's own rules. The problem is it is so big that people will not agree on what the new rules should be. And just like any other league if people don't like the rules they will quit. |
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[SL] + Official Stunty teams. Progression KO. Old & new teams welcome. 29th May! |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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Jul 01, 2012 - 17:22 |
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Good thoughts from koadah. I can see how some might view CRP as a GOOD thing. Any joe has a shot at a poker championship if the cards fall right. So too with a FUMBBL major with a simple CLAWPOMB team. IF the cas fall in line, everyone can have a go at the titles. An awsome player might resent that, but it has got to be good for general popularity, I would think. Nice point, ko.
Personally, I felt that recieving the ball first from PC in this last qualifier, if my rat had clawpomed that first orc, I could have had a good shot at the game. He practically said as much. It was nice feeling like I had a chance. It's so similar to poker. |
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Join the wait-list. Watch the action. Leave the Empire. Come to Bretonnia! |
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Voldemorte
Joined: Apr 11, 2011
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Jul 01, 2012 - 18:15 |
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What is a choobah choobah? |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Jul 01, 2012 - 19:11 |
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| Voldemorte wrote: | | What is a choobah choobah? |
If you have to ask... |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Jul 01, 2012 - 19:46 |
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I think its Chewbaccas grandma right? |
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