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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 02:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Arthas85 wrote:
koadah wrote:
I'm completely confused. Are we saying that teams in the competitive division will start their new season at max 1350TV?


I think this is the message.


Ah. OK. Shocked

To think that I was moaning when I thought it was 1750. Mr. Green

As long as league commissioners can configure:
Seasons on/off
Games per season
Initial budget
Bonus per game
Bonus per win
Bonus per tie
Bonus per loss
Bonus per TD
Bonus per cas
Hard cap

I think that I would consider this a great day for the League division. Twisted Evil

Edit: Could we please have the ability to assign different values for the first season than for subsequent seasons.
Or different values for the first n seasons.

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Last edited by koadah on Aug 09, 2020 - 03:48; edited 2 times in total
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 02:21
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MattDakka wrote:
I like the season redraft, but a potential issue of 1350 TV redrafting could be narrowing down the playable races.
At that TV some races are stronger, I guess that many people would play Dwarfs, Norse, Amazons, Undead, Wood Elves, Humans etc.
Playing teams requiring more development such as Chaos, Nurgle, Vampires for 15 games would be less appealing (if not utterly pointless), and the racial variety could be poor.
Maybe there is no "objectively best TV" but in my opinion, the redraft TV should allow people to play a wide variety of races, not just low TV powerhouses.

About the "objectively best TV": I guess that a way to choose the season redraft hard cap TV could be gathering data to know at which TV as many as possible races have the closest win % amongst them, and then using a Season number of games meant to achieve that TV (not possible to do this now, because we lack rosters, new rules and data, but it's just to explain the reasoning).

For example, let's say that 21 on 24 teams have the closest win rate at 1600 (I'm using 1600 just as example) then the season redraft hard cap should be TV 1600.


Remember that 1350 is only the value you redraft at. With 20 games on top of that most teams would be in the 1700 range.

Edit: Never mind, Nelphine said the same thing

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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 02:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Uedder wrote:
Grod wrote:
Just a thought: if you can choose to end a season at less than the 15 game cap, can you do it after 1 game? There may be some odd meta incentives to time early season ends to build larger teams? E.g. end a season after say 5 games if you have a large treasury and can keep all your players under the cap. You know have another 15 games to expand your team for the Fumbbl cup or whatever.


Each player gets 20k more expensive to rebuy after each season.
Ending a season early is basically just so you can rebuild if you lost too many players.


IF you fail wanting to retire.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 02:32 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:

Remember that 1350 is only the value you redraft at. With 20 games on top of that most teams would be in the 1700 range.

Edit: Never mind, Nelphine said the same thing


Isn't it only 15 games now?

How does that work with the BBT?

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Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 04:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Uedder wrote:
Grod wrote:
Just a thought: if you can choose to end a season at less than the 15 game cap, can you do it after 1 game? There may be some odd meta incentives to time early season ends to build larger teams? E.g. end a season after say 5 games if you have a large treasury and can keep all your players under the cap. You know have another 15 games to expand your team for the Fumbbl cup or whatever.


Each player gets 20k more expensive to rebuy after each season.
Ending a season early is basically just so you can rebuild if you lost too many players.


Wait each season cumulatively adds 20 TV to a player?? That is weak as hell. So if you have a team that features a specific guy he could be inflated 80k after 4 seasons? That is just dumb.
Tomay



Joined: Apr 26, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 05:35 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

To think that I was moaning when I thought it was 1750. Mr. Green

As long as league commissioners can configure:
Seasons on/off
Games per season
Initial budget
Bonus per game
Bonus per win
Bonus per tie
Bonus per loss
Bonus per TD
Bonus per cas
Hard cap

I think that I would consider this a great day for the League division. Twisted Evil

Edit: Could we please have the ability to assign different values for the first season than for subsequent seasons.
Or different values for the first n seasons.


SWL currently give a manual bonus dependent on tier to have teams scale up as they reach the higher divisions.
For example
+100k for Regional Teams
+150k for Conference Teams
+200k for Premiership Teams

It has been quite a good alteration with teams required to compete at each level to win the big one. Also varies game play and tactics at each level.

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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 06:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Also note, fan factor is not counted as part of the draft cost. So if Christer implements a 1350K hard cap and you have FF 10, your team actually re-drafts with a TV of 1450K.

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Uber



Joined: Mar 22, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 06:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I find the 1350 cap very low for a perpetual league. Some teams are just getting started at that TV. It's not that I dislike gameplay around these numbers, but I also like the 1750-2000 range. I'm not sure I'll like to play under such a restrictive cap.

Also under this very tight cap, what's the point of even having +ST in the game? The cap is also very hostile to big guys, who are very expensive for their early value and reliability. Not really looking forward to an era of even more extreme minmaxing.

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Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 06:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, I agree. This system will turn the entire site into a group of smallman clones. If this works out as powergamey as it seems on paper my Bbowl days will be over.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 07:02 Reply with quote Back to top

What is the pace going to be like on skilling players? We talking about that yet?
fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 07:18 Reply with quote Back to top

My former perpetual TT league runs 3 divisions, each with a different redraft cap: 1000k (new teams only), 1400, and 2000. They adjust the redraft cash upward for TD and CAS (x5k each) as well as games played (10k per) -- season was 8 games but if you were successful in the playoffs you played more games, effectively getting you slightly more redraft money. The intention was to retain the high-TV play and legendary teams built over the past 22 years.

It doesn't change the sense I have that Seasons is a simple-minded hack to address fundamental problems with the way skills and winnings work and interact with each other, and forces a restrictive style of league management on all leagues... But who am I to blow against the wind?

I'd be very curious to hear about *successful* implementations of Seasons on perpetual leagues, especially ones that thrived with high-TV games. I assume there are some out there.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 08:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Uber wrote:
I find the 1350 cap very low for a perpetual league. Some teams are just getting started at that TV. It's not that I dislike gameplay around these numbers, but I also like the 1750-2000 range. I'm not sure I'll like to play under such a restrictive cap.

Also under this very tight cap, what's the point of even having +ST in the game? The cap is also very hostile to big guys, who are very expensive for their early value and reliability. Not really looking forward to an era of even more extreme minmaxing.


The cap is a redraft cap. Post redraft your team could easily get up to 2000 tv in 15 games.

Is a cap actually needed i wonder. I'd need to test it to check. But I wonder how teams would grow without it. 15 games then redraft would still look see teams tv drop a fair bit I would assume. Hmmmm I'll need to come back to this point.

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 08:29
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koadah wrote:
mister__joshua wrote:

Remember that 1350 is only the value you redraft at. With 20 games on top of that most teams would be in the 1700 range.

Edit: Never mind, Nelphine said the same thing


Isn't it only 15 games now?

How does that work with the BBT?


Christer said he was thinking 20 in his blog. I dunno where 15 came from.

But also, Tussock who mentioned the TV redraft cap said it was 1300 so I don’t know where 1350 came from either Razz

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 08:39 Reply with quote Back to top

So without the cap a team at best will possibly be able to start at 1600 assuming they win all 15 games, and they manage to save up a decent chunk of their cash without hitting expensive mistakes.

I'm not sure the cap is needed, as getting to 1600 tv at the start of a draft will be very unlikely. Also the reason 1300 cap is in the rulebook is so all teams start a season on even footing (roughly). In a matchmaker environment where games are drawn based on tv. I don't think this restriction is needed.

Worst case scenario is a team achieves a tv of 2200 ish at the end of their 15 game run. Heck they could save up spp and not spend it on a bunch of players until post draft aiming for one crazy high powered season. In which case they may reach higher tv's 2300+. But after that season ends they will not be able to maintain that. And will most likely find them self sub 1400tv. As dodging expensive mistakes, and saving spp carefully across a team without hitting the random stat spending cap and winning 100% of their games 2 seasons running seems extremely unlikely.

I think removing the cap might actually bring a little sub game to the table for people to try and push their tv to the highest possible limit, gaming spp accumulation and expensive mistakes. Pushing them to their limit.

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Last edited by Garion on Aug 09, 2020 - 08:43; edited 2 times in total
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 08:39 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:


Christer said he was thinking 20 in his blog. I dunno where 15 came from.

But also, Tussock who mentioned the TV redraft cap said it was 1300 so I don’t know where 1350 came from either Razz


There's a 2nd blog Smile

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