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The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 02:09 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB said "One of the reason for the change was so throwers had a role to play and make it harder for agility teams to get a ball away from a scrum. They still do it fairly well anyway.

Another reason was stopping farming of SPP on agility teams."

Again, this sounds like you were IN the room when someone explained how they were going to stop dirty SPP-farming throwers, and stop elves from consistently being able to throw a stolen ball away from the pack. WIP makes perfect sense in those contexts. Dangerous to farm, hard to pass when marked, etc.

Now, I'm not calling you a liar, but I think I might be calling you a liar. You sure you don't, and haven't always, represented some small part of the BBowl rules committee at GW? Maybe your brother-in law?

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CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 02:28 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:
CAB said "One of the reason for the change was so throwers had a role to play and make it harder for agility teams to get a ball away from a scrum. They still do it fairly well anyway.

Another reason was stopping farming of SPP on agility teams."

Again, this sounds like you were IN the room when someone explained how they were going to stop dirty SPP-farming throwers, and stop elves from consistently being able to throw a stolen ball away from the pack. WIP makes perfect sense in those contexts. Dangerous to farm, hard to pass when marked, etc.

Now, I'm not calling you a liar, but I think I might be calling you a liar. You sure you don't, and haven't always, represented some small part of the BBowl rules committee at GW? Maybe your brother-in law?


It just is a common sense deduction of the impact of the rules and I'm just rehashing what other have said as well. What went through their heads is anyone guess.

It is my OPINIONS on the matter and it IS the consequence. I have played enough games to know as much.
neubau



Joined: Nov 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 02:31 Reply with quote Back to top

because spp farming for teams that cant get cas reliably was such a huge problem. enough games ... sure.

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CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 02:39 Reply with quote Back to top

neubau wrote:
because spp farming for teams that cant get cas reliably was such a huge problem. enough games ... sure.


These teams always scored more touchdowns instead... in all the leagues that we played over the years the agility teams always scored the most touchdowns and they still will I'm sure.

In almost all leagues Elven teams generally had the most SPP and farming SPP with passes have always been a lucrative thing.

It might not have been a decisive factor for changing the mechanic but it certainly is a consequence.
Felix17



Joined: May 23, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 03:24 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't see why being able to pass a spilled ball away from the pack is such a terrible thing. Maybe I'm not a good enough coach, but spilling the ball once a cage forms is feckin' hard, and exposes my squishy Elves/Skaven to a fair amount of brutality. Not every team has a Leaping Tackle/Strip Baller ready to pounce. Get it wrong and you get the brutality without the ball.

OK, if you get to the ball before the cage forms, or if you have a fireball spell, it's much easier, but that's not the same as easy; it needs luck and skill to get to a carrier in the open. The only other option is to column defence and hope you make a lot of Dodges. Which makes for a duller game, as active, attacking defence is a lot more exciting than simply dodging and reforming a new line. Just my 2 cents, but by making passing the exclusive preserve of Throwers, GW has most likely slowed the game down and made it more two dimensional.

And personally, SPP farming is a thing, but I can't see how it is a major problem. Holding the ball is paramount, especially when facing other agility teams. Ball retention and control trumps that 1SPP in almost all cases, and in my experience those completions are often not worth the risk (i.e. I might do it once a game, but then, I might not at all).
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 09:02 Reply with quote Back to top

SPP farming still is a thing, but only with dedicated throwers.

It just is a fact that farming SPP with other players now is very difficult for Elven teams. You used to be able to make a quick pass instead of a handover (if you had a RR over), this is rarely now a sensible option anymore.

The WI result actually make the scrum harder to control in one place and this still favour the agility teams. Before you were more likely to just drop the ball when passing in a fumble now it launches on a WI result and ends up somewhere else. That is often going to happen when a Lineman or Blitzer tries to throw the ball in a scrum.

Elves are still almost as likely to finally snatch the ball, not just turn it around in one or two turns to score a counter touchdown.. you are likely to delay if for another turn or two in that case.

As the throwers are more important it also become more important how you handle the thrower on the pitch and protect the thrower rather than using it as a secondary throwaway lineman. You need to be more careful with your positioning of this player now and that takes more skill not less from the coach.
neubau



Joined: Nov 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 09:38 Reply with quote Back to top

none of this what you describe makes the game in any way or form better or more fun.

the "score more touchdowns" bit also lets me doubt your "enough games" statement, as the majority of games ends with max 2 touchdowns scored per team, with the 2-1 grind being the standard gameplay. a quick look on the last played games page shows me that only 4 of the last 30 games on fumbbl had a team scoring 3 touchdowns, not a single team with more than that. this btw hasnt changed in this edition, with the new and nerfed passing system (fun how you aren't defending it anymore) there will be less high scoring matches.

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Last edited by neubau on Nov 30, 2020 - 09:53; edited 1 time in total
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 09:51 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
In almost all leagues Elven teams generally had the most SPP and farming SPP with passes have always been a lucrative thing.


They also died like flies to compensate.

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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 10:18 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
SPP farming still is a thing, but only with dedicated throwers.

The WI result actually make the scrum harder to control in one place and this still favour the agility teams. Before you were more likely to just drop the ball when passing in a fumble now it launches on a WI result and ends up somewhere else. That is often going to happen when a Lineman or Blitzer tries to throw the ball in a scrum.
.


I am not sure of this. Because WI result deviates the ball when you are in a cage (or even simply close to one enemy) and try to launch the ball with a blitzer with high PA caracteristics with a -2 handicap the WI results is not so seldom (sufficient to roll 1, 2, 3) and deviation can be totally random. This means in principle the ball can fly "BEHIND" you. I think nobody will take the risk to make a short pass from a cage hoping in a WI results so to free the ball if the results is to give to your opponent a key advantage in such a way.

I think that very simply coaches will have tendency to refrain to pass the ball and this will slow the game. One Elf Blitzer who pick up a bouncing ball close to an enemy will never try to make a short pass to another player in front of him try to touchdown but will find recovery inside a cage like if he would be a simply Undead's Ghoul!

This is definitively a major change for agility team like Elves which are in my opinion the most impacted (in negative) by this bad passing rule - in my humble opinion.

Dark Elves in particular - in my opinion- seems the team most impacted by this new rule. I still doubt I will continue playing with this team in future and will change for Elven Unions. Rolling Eyes
Meradanis



Joined: Jul 10, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 12:04 Reply with quote Back to top

I do not think the whole WIP is as bad as everyone believes it to be.

A Long Bomb was and will always be a desperate attempt to score a touchdown. A Short Pass is a much more reasonable example. The Blood Bowl pitch is only 26 squares long. Lets assume your Thrower and Catcher both have MA7, then a Short Pass will cover 20 squares.

Only a roll of a 2 will result in a WIP. With accurate, it will never occur unless the Thrower is marked.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 12:18 Reply with quote Back to top

neubau wrote:
none of this what you describe makes the game in any way or form better or more fun.

the "score more touchdowns" bit also lets me doubt your "enough games" statement, as the majority of games ends with max 2 touchdowns scored per team, with the 2-1 grind being the standard gameplay. a quick look on the last played games page shows me that only 4 of the last 30 games on fumbbl had a team scoring 3 touchdowns, not a single team with more than that. this btw hasnt changed in this edition, with the new and nerfed passing system (fun how you aren't defending it anymore) there will be less high scoring matches.


Yes... and I agree this is an issue. I think they have tried to encourage more touchdown in other ways to compensate... such as scoring TD give you extra money and in League play scoring 3 or more TD give you extra league points.

You also have special play cards that can make holding the ball until the last turn be a bit dangerous, or if a player stalls something bad can happen to them.

in general it remains to be seen how all of these things will work and if it is enough to break the 2-1 grind type of play style as the best strategy. To be honest I don't know if it will... but in a League you will have some strong incentive to do so.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 12:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Meradanis wrote:
I do not think the whole WIP is as bad as everyone believes it to be.

A Long Bomb was and will always be a desperate attempt to score a touchdown. A Short Pass is a much more reasonable example. The Blood Bowl pitch is only 26 squares long. Lets assume your Thrower and Catcher both have MA7, then a Short Pass will cover 20 squares.

Only a roll of a 2 will result in a WIP. With accurate, it will never occur unless the Thrower is marked.


The big difference is that WI "deviate".

Quoting the ruleset
Inaccurate pass: "the ball will scatter three times from the target square before landing"
This means you still have the chance to launch the ball in the half of the pitch you want (likely the one of your opponent Smile )

Wildly Inaccurate Pass: "the ball will DEVIATE from the square occupied by the player performing the pass action before landing".

The DEVIATION is calculated with 1D8 and the Random direction template.
So you have more than 33% of chance your ball is flying backwards in YOUR half side of the pitch!


This is totally unrealistic even in athis new Fantasy Rugby game.
Razz Laughing Smile
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 12:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Meradanis wrote:
I do not think the whole WIP is as bad as everyone believes it to be.

A Long Bomb was and will always be a desperate attempt to score a touchdown. A Short Pass is a much more reasonable example. The Blood Bowl pitch is only 26 squares long. Lets assume your Thrower and Catcher both have MA7, then a Short Pass will cover 20 squares.

Only a roll of a 2 will result in a WIP. With accurate, it will never occur unless the Thrower is marked.


This means that a short pass without Accurate have a 1/18 chance to be a WIP if you also have the Pass skill.

To most people that is a very high chance of a catastrophic failure, especially as the result can mean the opponent score against you instead.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 12:54 Reply with quote Back to top

As an aside: I don't think that Elves farming SPPs with quick passes was breaking the game, but, if that was an issue for designers, they could have tackled it by awarding Completion SPP only with Long/Long Bomb (by increasing the risk people would have refrained from vanity passes), or simply removed the Completion SPP at all. No need to break a passing system just to stop the Completion SPP farming.
About Wildly Inaccurate chance of landing BEHIND the thrower: yes, it doesn't make sense even for a parody game like BB, unless you consider maybe a very clumsy AG 1 player like a Mummy trying to pass.
Gartch



Joined: Sep 07, 2012

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 13:16 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
As an aside: I don't think that Elves farming SPPs with quick passes was breaking the game, but, if that was an issue for designers, they could have tackled it by awarding Completion SPP only with Long/Long Bomb (by increasing the risk people would have refrained from vanity passes), or simply removed the Completion SPP at all. No need to break a passing system just to stop the Completion SPP farming.

I completly agree with that.
And I even think you can apply this logic to most parts of the 2020 rules: they changed working rules to try to solve non existing or not important problems that are likely to not even being solved by these modifications, because not tackling directly the problems, but changing something else in the rules.
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