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Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2020 - 14:00 Reply with quote Back to top

sebco wrote:
According to me, there's another thing. If you give slanns Leap + Very long legs, it means in BB 2020 that they will leap on a 3+ for catchers and 4+ for lines/blitzers when there's 1 or 0 tackle zone (and worst when there are more)


My understanding is that if there are no Tackle zones, the roll is the same as before. 3+ for Linefrogs and Blitzers, 2+ for Catchers. It's a straight agility roll.

But then again if you have no tackle zones on either target or origin square, the point of leaping is very limited

The effect of Leap+VLL is that you leap into 3 TZ on a 4+ (blitzers/lines) and 3+ (catchers) because both rules reduce the penalties by 1.

Which is kinda the same nerf that Wardancers got.
sebco



Joined: Feb 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2020 - 14:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:
sebco wrote:
According to me, there's another thing. If you give slanns Leap + Very long legs, it means in BB 2020 that they will leap on a 3+ for catchers and 4+ for lines/blitzers when there's 1 or 0 tackle zone (and worst when there are more)


My understanding is that if there are no Tackle zones, the roll is the same as before. 3+ for Linefrogs and Blitzers, 2+ for Catchers. It's a straight agility roll.

But then again if you have no tackle zones on either target or origin square, the point of leaping is very limited

The effect of Leap+VLL is that you leap into 3 TZ on a 4+ (blitzers/lines) and 3+ (catchers) because both rules reduce the penalties by 1.

Which is kinda the same nerf that Wardancers got.


Yes, you're right, I misexplained.

If there are no tz on the square they leap from and no tz in the square they leap into, it's a pure AG roll, so 2+ for catchers and 3+ for linemen/blitzers. But, as you said, there's generally no interest in leaping in that kind of situation.

I wanted to speak about situations where there is, for example, 1 tz on the square they leap from and no tz in the square they leap into. In BB 2016 rules, slanns often use that kind of leaps (wardancers don't, as it's easier for them to then dodge). In BB 2020, if they have Leap and Very Long legs (and no Pogostick), that will be harder for them : 4+ for linemen/blitzers and 3+ for catchers as there's a -1 modifier because of 1 tz and minimum malus is -1 even with Leap AND Very Long legs.

Then, if they want to leap in a cage in BB 2020, if you compare a wardancer and a slann lineman or blitzer, it will be sometimes easier for wardancer than for them while it was the same dice roll for both in BB 2016 (minimum malus is -1, even with Leap AND Very Long Legs so if there's only 1 tz in square they leap from and 1 tz in square they leap into, it will be 3+ for wardancers / slann catchers and 4+ for slann linemen/blitzers).

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kozak



Joined: Feb 25, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2020 - 18:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I know the whole point of slann is to have a lot of leaping guys with VLL, but now that leap gets nerfed why not just removing it from the majority of the postional except the catchers? Imo only the catchers are still worth keeping it because they have AGI4 but the linemen and the blitzers are screwed. VLL still gives a bonus when you want to jump over a prone player, and you don't need jump to do that, in plus it gives you a bonus to intercept. That's mean also that it would reduce the cost of linemen and the blitzers that are already very expensives.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2020 - 19:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I think we're talking about two different routes.

One is doing the minimal tweaks necessary (add reasonable passing stats and maybe tweak costs following other races' hikes and discounts) which should get the highest amount of agreement possibile from the community at large.

The other is to radically change the roster, to make it "good" or close enough to what it was in previous editions, basically playing game designer. Nothing wrong with it, it's just that everyone will have a different opinion of what is necessary and it won't get the same level of consensus. Wildly different slann rosters might be used in this league or that tournament circuit.

I'm biased towards the first but I'm not holding my breath for even that to happen. For the open [L] division it's what I think is more likely.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2020 - 21:10 Reply with quote Back to top

kelvingreen wrote:

Ha! I do wonder how much vampire-on-vampire action we will see going forward. Wink Part of me thinks it's a very bad idea to risk it, but on the other hand, vampires are more likely to survive being bitten...

You can not bite stunned Thralls any longer. If your only choice it to try moving a Vamp standing next to another one or no nothing I think you will have to take your chances..
Frowny



Joined: Apr 27, 2020

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 18:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I've been pondering Vampires more and I think I'm more in the Java boot- I think its a net slight buff

Downsides
More Knocked over thalls players on your team (4+ is much more likely than a 6+)
Maybe slightly more injuries, depending on how much you are able to block and blitz with the vampires.


Upsides
Control of end rather than the beginning- I have several times almost scored but then had to run backward to feed because even though my awesome vamp could dodge+blitz his way through, a thrall would be unable to follow. Its also pretty easy to get someone next to you to start - you are often in your own half of the field. Much harder to get someone next to you where you end (often in the opposing half where thralls may struggle to get.)
No turnovers if failed
Easier blocking
Slightly better pro, although less good now with the 2+ gaze
Feed of other Vamps in a pinch - a vamp can now blitz his friend free, who can feed off him, and then carry on down to the endzone, for example.
2+ gaze- this is actually huge. Few teams can protect a ball from 2x gazes and a blitz, and this is much easier to pull of now.
Easier skill access at lower SPP

I can actually imagine using a lot more vampires now. If you really wanted, you could even put a few on the line of scrimmage, which you would never do before. Block with the thralls first, then the vamps. Jump up is also quite promising for LoS vamps. You could even go Wrestle + sidestep/SF+ Jump up on 2-3 vamps to place on the LoS every game and then aim for dodge at 36 spp. Note that this would now be possible on only 3 picks at 18 SPP, whereas before you'd only have 2 skills at that point.

The other huge improvement I want to point out is how quick it can be to get picked or even random skills. You can now get 4 picked skills at 36 spp, where now it is like 51. Since Vamps require so many skills to really get going, I think this will be great for league play. A few random picks could be even better, especially early on. I can imagine rolling the first skill looking for either wrestle/block/sure hands/pro/tackle on the general table and then picking from there or redrafting if not. Frenzy,Fend and strip ball are also OK and you want kick somewhere giving a better than 50% on the first roll and only a 25% true miss chance.

I also think + random stats are interesting on vamps as well and are now more reliable. +Mv, +St + Ag are all awesome, and + Passing is useful at least once on the ball handler. I can imagine rolling a stat at 18SPP to start on ~2 vamps to see where I end up actually hoping for +passing or +Mv, as the high TV for AG and St are a bit off putting. I really liked passing on a 2+. It made midfield touchdowns easy as soon as you got a single vamp in scoring range, and now you can reliably save the reroll for the pass rather than maybe needing it for bloodlust.

I think vamp teams will transition from 2-4 vamps + thralls to more like 4-6 + thralls.

I think redrafting will also be fine for vamps- I think I'll start with mostly random rolls on the general table and then after a few games adding on picked general or strength skills to fill out the build. Redrafting thralls doesn't matter much as I find they seldom get more than 1 skill anyway before dying. Its not like elves where rerolling a bunch of blodge linemen will hurt or will bloat up your TV a lot- i think people will only be keeping 2-4 vamps per redraft.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 20:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Just to add on the slann, yes the leaping nerf rather messes them up. However there is an easy fix which the NAF have applied to keep them in their tournament rules pack for 2021 (hooray!) - you just give them all Pogostick. Believe they work exactly as originally intended then. Maybe we should do the same as NAF here to keep them in League?
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 00:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't get why the naf are keeping made up rosters for Slann and Khorne and recommending their inclusion for tournaments. The ruleset has changed, these rosters aren't in it (and actually never really were). Simply translating an old roster across to the new ruleset is problematic because the new ruleset IS different. Did they do any game testing?

Sure, some people like them, but game rules shouldn't be about popularity. If they are, I propose we take votes on the following game ammendments. For each ammendment, if the vote passes, then we change the rules.

1. Ban turn 16 fouling.
2. Remove Dwarves as a playable roster.
3. Add a space marine team.
4. If you kill or permanently injure a wardancer or a gutter runner with a foul during the game, your team automatically gains +1 FF at the end of the match.

What say you?

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 01:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Major team changes I've noticed from the little things.

Amazon: Really hard to justify catchers and throwers now, less random +ST/+AG hurts. Still super sweet low-TV blitzer minmax.

Chorfs: No Kick-off Return for Hobgoblin, way less +AG bulls and hobs, so much weaker BT bulls, much slower to get the ball into their preferred part of the pitch against kickers.

High Elf: will desperately need wrestle everywhere to make up for worse leap, though stat fishing looks promising. Jump is something, but eh, only help if you've got time to use it, and more running needed without the easy 2+ long passers means heavier traffic anyway.

Khemri: fast throw-ras are amazing players, MA 8 baller for every team. Pretty serious upgrades all over, less positional loss, but then harder to skill TGs again, no BT on the bigs, back to being super fouly/grindy and desperate for Guard, Tackle, MB, and Grab so you don't have to dodge the ball.

Norse: fish for +AG runners I think, if they end up MA 9 blodgestep surehand that'll have to do. Price bumps are not the end of life, but need a good fouling game, needs more dakka.

Vampire: less scrambling messes I think, as they won't be able to gaze free moves every turn. But keeping everyone standing for that one turn, burning the food supply up, and all but guaranteed hit on the ball and recovery play? Will need excellent pre-positioning, but also, (shh) I once had an MA 8 hitter vamp and just won everything in sight, and every vamp team will now. Your carrier really only needs MA 7, blodgestep surehand pro fits then.

--

@Grod, Frogs are in NAF because people who have only painted up a frog team for NAF games want to play in tournaments, and those people have a lot of friends who also play bloodbowl.

It's like the Gnome rule for 4th edition D&D, yeah, not many people played Gnomes, but some people only played them and those people were in gaming groups with like 5 other people.

Or, if you like, we still have Undead despite the attempt to replace them with Khemri and Necro, which we also still have. See also Pro Elfs and High Elfs.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 02:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
I don't get why the naf are keeping made up rosters for Slann and Khorne and recommending their inclusion for tournaments. The ruleset has changed, these rosters aren't in it (and actually never really were). Simply translating an old roster across to the new ruleset is problematic because the new ruleset IS different. Did they do any game testing?

Sure, some people like them, but game rules shouldn't be about popularity. If they are, I propose we take votes on the following game ammendments. For each ammendment, if the vote passes, then we change the rules.

1. Ban turn 16 fouling.
2. Remove Dwarves as a playable roster.
3. Add a space marine team.
4. If you kill or permanently injure a wardancer or a gutter runner with a foul during the game, your team automatically gains +1 FF at the end of the match.

What say you?


I say "the commissioner's word is law". Play it or don't.
You can always whinge about it either way. Wink

Who do you make the rules for if not the people who are going to play the game?

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Niessuh



Joined: Dec 11, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 09:09 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:
Amazon: Really hard to justify catchers and throwers now


cachers are very nice foulers with DP and SG
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 11:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Amazon catchers with defensive and access to agility as primary will be quite important to the team.

Guard Blitzers and Defensive Catchers is a pretty strong combination of skills that come as primary skills. Norse also get this powerful combination of skills as primary choices, but the Amazons probably make the better use of it than Norse in my opinion.

Just the access to different primary skills is pretty important to all teams.

The Amazon thrower are definitely a good positional player as a runner with access to passing skills. If you don't have throwers you are relegated to only one hand-off per turn, with the thrower you can make a better stretch play which might be very important to Amazon teams with their limited movement of 6.

Catchers are likewise important as you can easily get access to skills such as Sure Feet that could be vitally important to slow Catchers. Catchers that score allot also are prime candidates to stat increases as they can make use of any stat increases, movement in particular is good on them.
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