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ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 17:29 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

About the Orc Thrower: Blitzers are better ball carriers. MA 5 sucks.

I normally carry with the blitzers. I am specifically talking about situations where a pass would be needed like a 2 to 4 turn drive. On a short drive the 15k for a thrower on the bench over a lino, especially in a league or other format where minmaxing isn't as needed as black box, seems like it would be worth it due to sure hands, pass, and +1 passing drastically increasing the success rate of a pass over that of an attempt by an orc lino or blitzer, even with dealing with the animosity roll. I wouldn't bother with an orc thrower on a freshly created team and think that the thrower and troll are luxury players when it comes to redrafting, but if anything I would say he has gotten slightly better comparatively due to orc linos and blitzers getting a -1 to passing and ag 4 (or 2+) being both harder to obtain and not connected to passing anyway.
Zlefin



Joined: Apr 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 17:34 Reply with quote Back to top

From what I can tell (don't have access to the new rules), doing 2 gfi's and a handoff is now gonna be better for most players (in the cases where that's an option).

I know I'm going to miss the feasibility of chaos passing. Being able to 3+/3+ a quick pass opens up a lot of options; not great odds, but a real threat nonetheless. I know from playing khemri how big a difference a 3+ to a 4+ makes for things like this. It was one of the things that really helped out chaos when fighting dwarves early; sure it wasn't a huge diff, but the fact that everyone on the chaos team could move the ball with decent odds if given an opening helped.

cost-wise it seems odd that players largely aren't getting any cost discounts for the significant nerf of decreased passing ability. I guess as long as the ones that got improvements have to pay more for it it's fine.

I don't see why they'd nerf passing; it wasn't used much as is.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 18:17 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I know that there are Leader caddies in CRP, but the new rules didn't fix it.

I think the point was that it did not make it better or worse. The new rules has not changes that.

MattDakka wrote:

CRP is not a good ruleset, so you should not consider it.
About the Orc Thrower: Blitzers are better ball carriers. MA 5 sucks.

The joys of old roster design. This edition the Orc Thrower is going to join the Orc Catcher in the display case as he will not be heading out to the pitch with the rest of the team.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 18:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I mean: a Thrower should be more useful than just being a Leader caddy.
Maybe it's just me but I'd like Throwers actually good at passing, as they are supposed to be. Very Happy
Not saying that a rookie Thrower should be able to Long Bomb easily, but never throwing Wildly Accurate passes would make them a bit better.


Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 02, 2020 - 18:52; edited 4 times in total
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 18:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Zlefin wrote:
From what I can tell (don't have access to the new rules), doing 2 gfi's and a handoff is now gonna be better for most players (in the cases where that's an option).

I know I'm going to miss the feasibility of chaos passing. Being able to 3+/3+ a quick pass opens up a lot of options; not great odds, but a real threat nonetheless. I know from playing khemri how big a difference a 3+ to a 4+ makes for things like this. It was one of the things that really helped out chaos when fighting dwarves early; sure it wasn't a huge diff, but the fact that everyone on the chaos team could move the ball with decent odds if given an opening helped.

cost-wise it seems odd that players largely aren't getting any cost discounts for the significant nerf of decreased passing ability. I guess as long as the ones that got improvements have to pay more for it it's fine.

I don't see why they'd nerf passing; it wasn't used much as is.


Well... I think that what you just described is one of the reason for the change... to make it harder for certain teams to make a long stretch play.

If you can only make one hand over in a turn you will be sort of limited. If you now take a thrower you will still have that option when you need to if you can maintain positioning with the thrower properly. You should otherwise be able to hand the ball to the thrower who then throws it to a scoring threat.

If you now opt out of the thrower you miss that opportunity which can cost you the win or even become a loss in a number of games.

Certain teams will not get any good throwers at all and will now be relegated to one hand-off per turn, unless they have the Fumblerooskie skill.
AzraelEVA



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 18:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
doing 2 gfi's and a handoff is now gonna be better for most players (in the cases where that's an option).


5/6 * 5/6 * 2/3 = 50/108
8/9 (pa +3 with pass) * 2/3 = 16/27 = 64/108
average player has PA +4
1/2 * 2/3 = 2/6 = 36/108
so yes it is better
det



Joined: Oct 01, 2017

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 20:23 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
Zlefin wrote:
From what I can tell (don't have access to the new rules), doing 2 gfi's and a handoff is now gonna be better for most players (in the cases where that's an option).

I know I'm going to miss the feasibility of chaos passing. Being able to 3+/3+ a quick pass opens up a lot of options; not great odds, but a real threat nonetheless. I know from playing khemri how big a difference a 3+ to a 4+ makes for things like this. It was one of the things that really helped out chaos when fighting dwarves early; sure it wasn't a huge diff, but the fact that everyone on the chaos team could move the ball with decent odds if given an opening helped.

cost-wise it seems odd that players largely aren't getting any cost discounts for the significant nerf of decreased passing ability. I guess as long as the ones that got improvements have to pay more for it it's fine.

I don't see why they'd nerf passing; it wasn't used much as is.


Well... I think that what you just described is one of the reason for the change... to make it harder for certain teams to make a long stretch play.

If you can only make one hand over in a turn you will be sort of limited. If you now take a thrower you will still have that option when you need to if you can maintain positioning with the thrower properly. You should otherwise be able to hand the ball to the thrower who then throws it to a scoring threat.

If you now opt out of the thrower you miss that opportunity which can cost you the win or even become a loss in a number of games.

Certain teams will not get any good throwers at all and will now be relegated to one hand-off per turn, unless they have the Fumblerooskie skill.


And how exactly is this an improvement? Ok, "everybody was stupidly scared of elves" seems like the only answer. Now...no more opening the field, no more blitzer being able to throw a quick a pass if needed...more so now that someone came up with wildly inaccurate...bah.

I'ts a complete and utter nerf, of passing and by extension of any remotely passing-ish play, of variety etc.
And the "claw doesn't stack with mb anymore" is absolutely not in the same league of nerf XD
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 20:34 Reply with quote Back to top

det wrote:

And how exactly is this an improvement? Ok, "everybody was stupidly scared of elves" seems like the only answer. Now...no more opening the field, no more blitzer being able to throw a quick a pass if needed...more so now that someone came up with wildly inaccurate...bah.

I'ts a complete and utter nerf, of passing and by extension of any remotely passing-ish play, of variety etc.
And the "claw doesn't stack with mb anymore" is absolutely not in the same league of nerf XD


We have to continue play and see how it goes... I think it is more just a change to the game that definitely will make throwers more important as a positional player if you now want the option to throw the ball.

I don't think you can categorically say it is bad, it just is a change that we need to deal with and find new strategies around this fact.
neubau



Joined: Nov 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 01:59 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:

I don't think you can categorically say it is bad


yes we can.

passing has been nerfed to hell, most people dont like that as it was already a very underused aspect of the game.

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 05:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Quick passes are better for some throwers, Short passes better after you take Accurate. The long range passing game is kinda dead though, unless Wildly Inaccurate gets errata'd to results less than one after modifications.

Then it'd be a similar passing game, better for a few teams, if you got to PA 1+ and Cannoneer you could match a current AG 5 accurate, and the quick stuff is just better on game 1, though you do pay for it and most teams miss out. 2+ out of the box is still nice, they just don't really develop in first press BB20.

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det



Joined: Oct 01, 2017

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 10:00 Reply with quote Back to top

meh...wildy inaccurate could scatter from the target square...that'd be something at least with some sense and some degree of usability I'd argue.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 11:36 Reply with quote Back to top

neubau wrote:
CAB wrote:

I don't think you can categorically say it is bad


yes we can.

passing has been nerfed to hell, most people dont like that as it was already a very underused aspect of the game.


How many games have you actually played with the new rules?!?

I have at least played with them for a while and it is not such a huge issue as people make it out to be. It just is something you need to deal with and adapt to.

You need a thrower now to get the option to pass the ball, even if it is mostly for quick and short passes.

It also is slightly harder to control a sacked ball. This is mainly a change and nothing revolutionary to the game at all in my experience. In some sense it make riskier play a bit less risky as it is a bit easier to recover a fumbled play.
det



Joined: Oct 01, 2017

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 11:57 Reply with quote Back to top

well...you said so yourself...

-now you need a thrower to have the option to pass (didn't before)

It's not a matter of games played with the new rules vs games played with the old rules, it's a matter of now needing something to actually be able to pass and all...so yes, passing has been nerfed, you said so yourself multiple times.

Is it the end of the world? no? overcome and adapt? sure.

But just don't say it hasn't been nerfed or that it's ok since it was a marginal aspect before too etc.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2020 - 12:07 Reply with quote Back to top

det wrote:
well...you said so yourself...

-now you need a thrower to have the option to pass (didn't before)

It's not a matter of games played with the new rules vs games played with the old rules, it's a matter of now needing something to actually be able to pass and all...so yes, passing has been nerfed, you said so yourself multiple times.

Is it the end of the world? no? overcome and adapt? sure.

But just don't say it hasn't been nerfed or that it's ok since it was a marginal aspect before too etc.


This is obviously correct and that I agree with... but saying that change is bad just because is not very constructive. Change does not need to be bad.

It more likely is neither bad nor good in and of itself... so far my experience is that it works pretty well and seem to be a good change, even if we overall pass less, or at least less accurately.

I'm just not fond of the way the WI effect is implemented in general, that is my only complaint at the moment.
Johnny_KTOU



Joined: Aug 11, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 05, 2020 - 12:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Sorry, couldn't find anything on Hail Mary Pass..

It says inaccurate at best, roll Passing Ability test (which seems to be irrelevant of PA), but doesn't technically refers to modifiers. However I'm assuming only the modifiers for tackle zones would apply, not the distances?

So Marked by 1 other player:
- 1 fumble
- 2 wildly inaccurate
- 3+ inaccurate

Without tackles zones, it's just:
- 1 fumble
- 2+ inaccurate

Is that correct?

Actually not even sure the tackle zones apply, just modifiers such as Disturbing Presence?
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