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MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2021 - 01:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Thoughts on how you develop a Nurgle team in the new rules, if you've got 15 games and a 1350 rebuy cap?

My beliefs (to be tested from mid Feb, but let's document them here:)

* Because MVP is random, and because Rotters are still fragile, you want to keep the number of players low so there's more chance the Bloaters will get MVPs early on when they need them
* First season, the Beast is bloat. With Stand Firm and Block it will be a monster, but you'll need to carefully shepherd it to get there, and maybe that's easier when the r at of the team has been through a season.
* Assuming no deaths or serious injuries, and 11 players, over 15 games each player gets 15*4/11=5.5 SPP from MVPs.
* If my Bloaters get their historical average of blocks per game (somewhere between 5 and Cool, and (for the sake of argument) they spent all their time hitting rookie human linemen, then in 15 games that's between 75 and 120 blocks each. Every block is worth 2/21.6*(5/9) = 0.05 SPP (value per casualty, divided by the average number of times you need to knock down a lineman to hurt him, times the chance of a successful 2d block by a rookie Bloater) so in its first season, a Bloater will get between 3.75 and 6 SPP from hurting people.

So by the time we get to 15 games, all the Bloaters have 9.25-11.5 SPP each.

mrt1212 made the point elsewhere that you don't need need to cash in your SPP immediately, so *maybe* you try to get to 10 SPP per Bloater at the end of season 1, and don't upgrade them until after game 16. That sounds risky, but it keeps TV down throughout their first season, and so protects you from running into teams that pose high risk (what about getting fouled to pieces by goblins?)

If one of your Bloaters was lucky enough to get SPP early on, give it Block, and then the averages tilt I'm favour of more SPP faster. If you have unlucky, low SPP Bloaters, rinse and repeat after game 15 - what is there to lose?

So for season 1, Bloaters are meatsacks to get in the way, keeping them cheap at rebuy and ready in their second season to be more solid.

Meanwhile the Pestigors are the only players with a chance of scoring (since Rotters got worse at ball handling) so as rapidly as possible, you get one with Sure Hands and Two Heads to score TDs, and hope another one begins to develop as a killer.

If I've got that right, Nurgle will suck during their first 15 games, but won't have to worry about the redraft cap. Then around game 16 (if you can bear to play them that long without skills) they suddenly become more proficient, and you have a run of 14 games with decent Bloaters, and hopefully the Pestigors are doing well by managing to score occasionally. Oh, and the ground game vanishes for the first season, because if you're fouling, you have cheap Rotters to spare, and with random MVP, I don't believe you can spare any spare Rotters...

In summary, feels like min-max without the max for a long while, then a late blossoming. How far off base do you think that is?

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2021 - 02:02 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd probably look to take guard before block on at least 2 bloaters, and I'd not develop a sure hands carrier - you want to spread the spp around pestigors, so a dedicated carrier is actually counter productive. In addition, you're going to have to have the pestis do *everything* so, it's likely they simply all take block first, and as soon as possible (however given the low skill expectancy of the ruleset, a wrestle first pestigor should be a consideration).

Either way, however you paint it, they look like hard times. And without any real "payoff" so to speak, as they will forever lag behind other teams in skills.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2021 - 02:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Any season you aren't going for a tournament, drop the beast. pick the beast up only for tournaments (pick it early in the season if you want to skill it before the tournament, but picking it up near the end of the season is fine too)

I'd consider not running full bloaters if I'm playing a tv matching environment. They increased in price (of all players *shakes head*) while both rotters and pests reduced in price, which means you can really do a minmax team from hell. Get the bloaters block if you're lucky, otherwise just pump everything into 3 killer pests and 1 ball handler.
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2021 - 02:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Knowing my regen rolls, I won't be able to play four Bloaters whether I wanted to or not Smile

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Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2021 - 02:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I think Nurgle got a serious kick in the shins with the Ag2 nerf to Rotters on top of cost adjustments. On top of redraft as well, Nurgle are easily the biggest losers in BB2020. Chaos Chosen got hit by redraft but at least their roster integrity wasn't compromised and they still maintain their starting rosters, great pitch control, speed and Strength 4 on demand.

For Nurgle I'd consider in a League the very real possibility of not starting with a Beast of Nurgle/Rotspawn. That way you can not only start with more than one pestigor, compensating now for the rotters abysmal agility, but also start with three rerolls. It's a massive shake up in terms of the original meta, but I'd say that's how anyone is going to play Nurgle and be able to get anything from them in the new rules.

For development I'd go:

Bloaters: 2 x Block/ 2 x Guard
Pestigors: Sure Hands for one, Block for the other
Rotters: Dirty Player, kick, and other utility skills.
Rotspawn: Stand Firm or Guard.


Last edited by Wolbum on Jan 16, 2021 - 12:37; edited 1 time in total
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2021 - 03:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Strange thing to me is that as the Death Guard seem to be the focus of GW's Chaos Space Marines, that they'd treat Nurgle so poorly elsewhere. Maybe in May there's a massive boost to our plague-ridden scum Smile

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smallman



Joined: Sep 24, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2021 - 08:15 Reply with quote Back to top

One of the key benefits of Nurgle was shutting down the passing game, but that trait is just laughable in 2020 Smile
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2021 - 20:54 Reply with quote Back to top

They are looking terrible.

Part of the issue is the Bloater cost. You end up with very little room for skills if you take all 4.
Not sure how well they will play if only take 3 of each.

Beast is too expensive to rehire so you will buy it during a season and give a random skill if it gets an MVP. Then sack at end of season.
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 00:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I've played some Nurgle lately, I figure I might throw in my 2 cents.

It's screwed.

...because it hasno core starting skills, no ballhandling, just weird looking fat guys with some cows and a bunch of discarded happy meals way over they expiration date.

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"la virtú sta nel cielo e nella terra, ma anche nelle nuvole e nelle stelle"

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Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2021 - 03:09 Reply with quote Back to top

awambawamb wrote:
I've played some Nurgle lately, I figure I might throw in my 2 cents.

It's screwed.

...because it hasno core starting skills, no ballhandling, just weird looking fat guys with some cows and a bunch of discarded happy meals way over they expiration date.


Did you manage to use them under the 2020 ruleset? How was their performance and did the Rotters Agility 4+ come up much?
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 10:22 Reply with quote Back to top

@Wolbum
no, not yet - but I'll try them. I don't have high hopes tho

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 12:15 Reply with quote Back to top

If Chaos and Nurgle don't get some changes in future supplements, I don't think they will be playable.
Chivite



Joined: Sep 04, 2017

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 12:30 Reply with quote Back to top

I think they are "playable", just more challenging, which is fine. People play stunties on a regular basis like
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 12:39 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
If Chaos and Nurgle don't get some changes in future supplements, I don't think they will be playable.

Chivite wrote:
I think they are "playable", just more challenging, which is fine. People play stunties on a regular basis like

Stunty teams have an appeal throwing players, secret weapons.

There is a wide gulf of what is set as "Tier 2". The question is are these teams going to be enjoyable to play? Will they be competitive?

I agree with MattDakka here. The answer is going to be NO.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2021 - 12:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Playable for me means: "playable competitively, with reasonable odds of winning assuming coaches of same skill level".
Even a team made by 16 Snotlings is playable, but most of the games will be losses.
That is not really playing but giving free wins.
Stunties at least have fun things, such as Secret Weapons, can foul often and can 1TTD with Throw Team-Mate. Where is the fun in playing Chaos or Nurgle, lacking core skills for almost 15 games, then being forced to fire some players?
It's masochistic.
If at least Chaos and Nurgle had starting random mutations, they would have a fun aspect, but as the rosters are, they are really not appealing.
High TV killer Nurgle and Chaos were dull to face, but now the rules make them dull to play.
Not a fan of Chaos or Nurgle, but they have been weakened eccessively.
Just my opinion, of course.
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