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Poll
Will you stall less in BB2020 to maximise you winnings?
I never stall anyway
4%
 4%  [ 6 ]
I won't stall, I want the money
2%
 2%  [ 3 ]
Probably stall less
15%
 15%  [ 21 ]
Winning is more important - I will keep stalling
60%
 60%  [ 80 ]
Not sure
9%
 9%  [ 13 ]
I am on the BB2020 boycott train
7%
 7%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 133


BlockBadger



Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2021 - 18:39 Reply with quote Back to top

My big issue is not stalling at the end zone after you have won a drive to burn down the clock, but instead stalling to start the drive for 6 turns because you know the opponent is not as good you and you have movement 9 players. You keep one gutter runner back and play block for almost half the game. Any team can score easy in 5 turns and if weather is the bit stopping a team from being able to play BB every game the weather needs to go. It’s great fun having games devolve into a brawl, but it’s so much more fun when that brawl has a ball in the middle instead of being kept safe in the own teams end zone.

TLDR: stalling should be an earned though good play on the opponents touchdown line. Not taken for free as the only viable tactical choice in your own half. And no one enjoys doing nothing for 15 min IRL.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2021 - 18:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Stalling should be simply limited IMHO to a max number of turns (for instance 2). That's all.
It will make matches more dynamic and avoid boring games where if - for bad luck - you have 50% of your team KO and the other put a player at 1 line of the TD with 5 pepople in a cage you cannot do anything.

But nobody seems to want to make this game less crazy of what already is


Twisted Evil
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2021 - 19:33 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
Stalling should be simply limited IMHO to a max number of turns (for instance 2). That's all.
It will make matches more dynamic and avoid boring games where if - for bad luck - you have 50% of your team KO and the other put a player at 1 line of the TD with 5 pepople in a cage you cannot do anything.

But nobody seems to want to make this game less crazy of what already is


Twisted Evil


The problem here is how do you define stalling? If you make it entering within a certain number of squares of the endzone, then what happens if it's actually competitive still and they are scrapping for everything. Do we really want to see that decided by a rock? Also, if you make it entering within so many squares of the endzone, my play just might deteriorate and it might just take me that bit longer to get there.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2021 - 19:40 Reply with quote Back to top

The vast majority of games where someone stalls on fumbbl do not feature people pissing about deep in their opponents/their own half anyway. They simply don't push as hard as they could in turns 1-5 so that they score in t8 in a timely fashion.

Is that going to change by making touchdowns give you more money? Not really. The fact is it takes two to tango in a high scoring game and not every race is capable of doing it, nor do you know if your opponent even wants to engage in a shootout. So it comes down to you having to evaluate that you can take the ball back off your opponent easily if you are intending on scoring quickly and often in a game.

Which basically means for most people the standard gameplan will be enacted as normal in the majority of games, with an increase in the odd games where a known weaker opponent (either via coaching or team) is mercilessly put in the dirt rather than simply beaten 2-0 or 2-1.

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Zlefin



Joined: Apr 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2021 - 20:10 Reply with quote Back to top

"vast majority" do not feature it seems a bit overblown. In my experience, stalling outside the end zone is infrequent, but not that uncommon, and tends to increase a bit at higher TV; as it's more likely a bash team got lucky and inflicted enough damage that they're very safe. It tends to be more of an issue in bash v bash or mostly lower ag team games. Elves can often pose some threat to a ball even if quite shorthanded, but for slower less agile teams, if they fall behind it can readily become utterly hopeless to even put up a decent fight, let alone have a chance at getting the ball carrier.

As to the question of definition; while it's a bit hard to precisely define, I find its usually pretty clear in practice when its occurring. This is not uncommon, for something to be hard to have a perfect definition semantically, but still be quite clear on average.
Cerberus85



Joined: May 06, 2017

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2021 - 21:14 Reply with quote Back to top

ClayInfinity wrote:
I see elves and skaven being keen to score more because they're fragile and more cash is important to them.


Agree in principle but scoring more as fragile races does have a downside; the more you score, the more chances your opponent has to remove your players from the LOS.


ClayInfinity wrote:
However, I think the mindset of most coaches is winning first and if that means stalling, so be it.


Agree completely.

Also agree that stalling, background wise would probably earn the ire of the crowd. So perhaps the throw rock mechanic on a roll of 1, increasing by 1 for every turn stalled (as suggested by Clayinfinity) but only if the team in possession of the ball
does not have the fan advantage. Assuming that the team with the most fans wants to see their team win and would therefore not throw a rock.

Edit - correction of initial suggestion

_________________
I've never lost a Blood Bowl match, I simply ran out of time....and occasionally players - Blitz Bombardi


Last edited by Cerberus85 on Feb 21, 2021 - 22:17; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2021 - 21:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Cerberus85 wrote:

Also agree that stalling, background wise would probably earn the ire of the crowd. So perhaps the throw rock mechanic on a roll of 1, increasing by 1 for every turn stalled (as suggested by Mattdakka) .

ClayInfinity suggested it, credit to him, I just added that the rock should check the AV and not automatically break it.
Another idea could be teleporting the ball 1d3 squares in a random direction from the ball carrier with a 6 on the first turn of stalling, 5+ and so on.
Fluff: the ball has been enchanted by the resident stadium Wizard with a teleport spell to discourage stalling.
moph



Joined: Sep 16, 2020

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2021 - 21:49 Reply with quote Back to top

If they really wanted to adress stalling in the rules, they had to change more game mechanics, than just throw some money at TDs. The Halftime turn structure and who receives the ball are the things that could be changed. Not that i could offer a working solution , but some ideas:
1. try a game without halftime break, sixteen turns for each team ball possesion changes after TD.
2. Or let the receiving team, receive again in "their" half no matter who scored.
just ideas to try out on TT have fun
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2021 - 22:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Malmir wrote:

The problem here is how do you define stalling? If you make it entering within a certain number of squares of the endzone, then what happens if it's actually competitive still and they are scrapping for everything. Do we really want to see that decided by a rock? Also, if you make it entering within so many squares of the endzone, my play just might deteriorate and it might just take me that bit longer to get there.


We can use the definition of Stalling the one described at page 64 of the BB2020 rulebook: "A situation of Stall happen if a player is Open AND in possession of the ball AND if the player is able to activate and perform their declared action without the need to first roll a D6 (*) AND if the player is able to move into the opposition's End Zone without needing to Rush or DOdge"
Open player is defined at page 26: Open played is not marked i.e not within the Tackle zone of any opposition player

I do not like the "trhow a rock" solution because introduce a random event in a game already overwhelmed by the dices events. So for instance I dislike this event in the Prayer of the Nuffle .
I would include just a rule that forbiddend to stall for more than N turn. Full stop. Without any dice to roll. If you decide to stall there is turnover and kick off, like a fault in a Rugby match...


(*) the D6 roll excludes the players who has the Really Stupid or Bone Head - it is very rare to have such player as ball keper but can happen. In this case if such player isnot open and can score within its allowed MA it is stalling too (otherwise a Big Guy could never ever enter in Stall situation)
Rags



Joined: Nov 09, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2021 - 23:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Sharknado was an idea

MattDakka wrote:
Cerberus85 wrote:

Also agree that stalling, background wise would probably earn the ire of the crowd. So perhaps the throw rock mechanic on a roll of 1, increasing by 1 for every turn stalled (as suggested by Mattdakka) .

ClayInfinity suggested it, credit to him, I just added that the rock should check the AV and not automatically break it.
Another idea could be teleporting the ball 1d3 squares in a random direction from the ball carrier with a 6 on the first turn of stalling, 5+ and so on.
Fluff: the ball has been enchanted by the resident stadium Wizard with a teleport spell to discourage stalling.
Alien_the_Alien



Joined: Apr 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Feb 22, 2021 - 16:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Stalling is just one of the available tactics. Sometimes it's better to stall, sometimes it's not.
The new rules are just adding and changing some factors. It doesn't change anything fundamentally. The goal is still to win.

The main rule influencing stalling is getting more cash for more TDs. It's a bit like the situation where you have an Ogre able to score on turn 7 against a team like humans. You could try to score but leave 2-turns TD attempt for the opponent, or risk the bonehead on turn 8 and not score at all. You aren't just thinking about this match, you're thinking "ok I'll probably take a TD in 2 turns, but at least I secured 3 spp on my ogre".
Some elf teams are in similar situations. Sometimes it's just better not to stall, because you want more spp, or you want to save important players and you prefer to get your LoS hit rather than them. If you can also get more cash doing so, then it might tip the scale a bit more in favour of not stalling.

But in most situations, it doesn't change anything.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 22, 2021 - 21:44 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Prez wrote:
Malmir wrote:
I'm not sure why so many people seem to think stalling needs fixing at all. If someone is able to stall against you, then either you've been very unlucky with dice (e.g. cas dice are on fire and you've hardly any men left) or, and I bet this is the reason more often, you've made mistakes that allow them to stall.


+1


+1

Stall FTW!


+3!
Joost



Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Post   Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 09:39 Reply with quote Back to top

moph wrote:
If they really wanted to adress stalling in the rules, they had to change more game mechanics, than just throw some money at TDs. The Halftime turn structure and who receives the ball are the things that could be changed. Not that i could offer a working solution , but some ideas:
1. try a game without halftime break, sixteen turns for each team ball possesion changes after TD.
2. Or let the receiving team, receive again in "their" half no matter who scored.
just ideas to try out on TT have fun


EDITED: after some reflection. I initially said that I think this is all artificial, but I'm changing my mind. These solutions aren't, although the label applies to some of the others I've seen. Such as thrown rocks, wizards etc. They do not address the imbalance between the ease of scoring and impossibility of defending a TD. This second option would stop stalling due to that same imbalance, but I'm not sure how bash would beat elves. The first would make me stall for 16 turns if I could, exactly for the same reason.

----------------------------------

Stalling is so important, because stopping a TD from happening is so hard. The offense can always score, unless derailed by very bad luck or coaching mistakes. As long as defense is so dependent on luck or poor opponent decisions, the best way to defend will be to keep the ball as long as possible and deny the opportunity to the opponent.

If you want to stop stalling from being a good strategy, you need to improve chances for the defense to stop a TD. Right now the best defensive strategy often is force an early score, rather than try to stop the opponent.

Ways to do that (and I am in no way advocating this should happen) is f.i. to give the defense two blitz actions per turn. Or for strip ball to always work, even against sure hands. I'm sure there are thousands extra ways to boost defensive capabilities.
neuro_



Joined: Aug 15, 2020

Post   Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 10:55 Reply with quote Back to top

It really depends- my woodies will likely not stall, but if I'm in a game where I'm not confident of the win then obviously I'll play it safe. More money would be great, to replace the inevitable 3 dead linos per game though...
Frowny



Joined: Apr 27, 2020

Post   Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 17:48 Reply with quote Back to top

My dream would be that the rules change to make it not advisable- I agree with earlier, that while it is perfectly fair play from a rules perspective, it also isn't super exciting game design.

My proposal
-The first drive for each team each half is at least 3 turns, going into overtime if necessary.
-Reduce the number of turns per half to 6 (down from 8 ) to maintain game duration.


My explanation:
All teams can make a reasonable attempt to score in 3 turns, even slower bash ones. There is now no incentive for teams to stall past turn 3- Even if you scored on the bottom of 4, their opponent would still get 3 turns. Bash teams benefit from always having at least 3 turns to try to score. All around less value to attempting 1 turn touchdowns. Some games might also be slightly less turns, (and maybe slightly shorter), but every turn would matter rather than occasionally there being t8 plays that don't mean anything or endzone stalls. Specifics are negotiable (maybe we give teams 2 turns or 4, maybe only reduce length to 7 or something).
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