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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 19, 2021 - 05:57 Reply with quote Back to top

I was thinking of what you can get at 1350 TV on different teams as this is where most of mine will start when we go to BB2020. It seems to me that with agent fees implemented you will want to start your team with the full compliment of positionals. The rookie positional players start with skills and stats that are discounted the TV cost of players that have skilled up over the season. For the purposes of this write up I will mostly go with 3 rerolls and an apothecary.

For the sake of this thread, I will also assume a 20k cost for skills in the first season. I do this because I view skills like Block, Dodge, Guard, and Mighty Blow to be skills that are worth while to save and choose rather than roll the dice for a random skill up.

Here are a few teams and I will add more as time and thoughts allow.

Dwarfs - 6 linemen, 2 blitzers, 2 runners, 2 slayers, deathroller, 3 rerolls and an apoth = 1310 tv (40k for 1 skill and a to pay the agent fee for that player.)
The alternative in my mind is to drop the deathroller which would give you a combination of 8 more chosen skills and agent fees. For the price, I may be keeping the deathroller.

Humans - Ogre, 4 Blitzers, 2 throwers, 2 catchers, 1 fling, 1 linemsn= 1050 (300k for skills and agent fees) Here, and in other squads it makes sense to keep a few skilled players for a season or two. I really, really hate agent fees under the new rules.

Dark Elves - 4 Blitzers, 2 Witches, 2 Runners, 2 Assassins, 2 Lineman, 3 rerolls, apothecary= 1290 TV - This leaves you 60k for skills and agent fees. You could quibble and get another 20k if you swapped one assassin and one runner for line elves. Still not much more to work with.

Necromancers - 2 Werewolves, 2 Flesh Golemns, 2 Wraiths, 2 Ghouls, 4 Zombies, 3 rerolls - 1190 TV - You have 160k to spend in skills and agent fees.

Wood Elves - Treeman. 2 Wardancers, 2 Throwers, 2 Catchers, 5 Linemen, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1290k - This leaves you with 60k for skills and agent fees. I went with only 2 catchers because I fear running with less strength on the board. According to taste you could get a little more of a bit fewer skills if you add catchers or subtract a thrower. Still the premise is that players out of the box are more efficient than those you skill and pay to rehire.

Goblins - 9 Goblins, 2 Trolls, 1 Pogo, 1 Looney, 1 Ooligan, 1 Fanatic, 1 Doom Diver, 3 rerolls, Apothecary- 1130K Here you have 220 left for rehiring players. This may be the team to go for a magical agility increase for better tosses, or getting block on your trolls. Perhaps some Sneaky Git on the Ooligan.

Underworld - 1 Troll, 1 Blitzer, 1 Thrower, 1 Gutter Runner, 3 Line Rats, 5 Goblins, 4 Snotlings, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1045k. Some may choose to run with the Rat Ogre, but I am still partial to the Troll. With 300k available for skills, I would think they would go towards your gutter runner, troll, and blitzer. Block on the troll? MB and Claw on your Blitzer? Block and +Mv on your Gutter Runner?

Chaos Renegades - 1 Troll, 1 Ogre, 1 Minotaur, 1 Elf, 1 Goblin, 1 Skaven, 1 Orc, 1 Thrower, 4 Linemen, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1,155K with 195k to spend on skills. You may get an extra skill if you drop the thrower for another lineman but the thrower may still be the best option. No mater what, after paying agent fees you will have fewer than 10 extra skills on the team. I would think you would want as much block as you can get and perhaps both block and dodge on the elf.

Lizardmen - 1 Krox, 6 Saurus, 2 Chameleon, 3 Skinks, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1,230k with 120k left to spend. You may be able to get one more skill by swapping the chameleons for normal skinks. I would think the only players you would want to rebuy are Saurus with block. I suppose the major difference between these and completely rookie teams is that you will be able to have 3 rerolls out of the box. If you don't get any skills you really like you could start with another reroll. At least you don't have to pay an agent for a reroll.

Orcs 1 Troll, 4 Black Orcs, 4 Blitzers, 2 Throwers, 1 Goblin, 1 Line Orc, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1,245k with 105k to spend. 5 skills or less on the team. Keep block on your BoBs that have it and Mighty Blow on Blitzers. Sack anyone else.

Undead 2 Mummies, 4 Ghouls, 2 Wights, 4 Zombies, 3 Rerolls = 1,100K with 250k to spare. If you prefer paying to buy skills rather that having rookies that come with skills, this team has more to spend than most. You could probably afford to keep a couple of players for a couple of seasons before you sack them.

Amazons 4 Blitzers, 2 Catchers, 2 Throwers, 4 Line Women, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1060k with 290k to spare. Here is a team like the undead that has a full team and among the most to spend on skills. If you like to build players over a couple of seasons, this may be one of the teams for you. If you want to run with random skills, this may also be fun as you will have the most extra gold to play with. Still, I would think your priority would be to get block on any player that does not come with it and paying 20k plus agent fees would be worth it.

Vampires 6 Vampires, 6 Thralls, 4 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1230k leaves 70k to play with. Now you could drop the apothecary and a thrall and get some more gold to play around with and if you have some skilled vampires, that would be the better option. All thralls should be rookies but it would be nice to have block and pro on a couple of vampires I think.

Skaven 1 Rat Ogre, 4 Gutter Runners, 2 Blitzers, 2 Throwers, 3 Line Rats, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1190k leaving 160k for skills. Obviously, the Gutter Runners will hog the skills but Block or Juggernaut on the Rat Ogre would be worth it. This may be a sweet spot for creating a powerful team as you have fun building a couple players because you have a good team with a little gold to spare.

High Elves - 2 Blitzers, 4 Catchers, 2 Throwers, 4 Linemen, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary - 1140k with 210k to spare. Here I think you try to get one skill on as many players as possible and keep them for one season. Each season try to get one skill on the rookies and fire players that have skilled up a couple of times. This is because only the two Blitzers come with core skills. You need to skill up block on linemen and dodge on positionals as much as possible to stay competitive.

Norse 1 Snow Troll, 2 Ulfwerenerss, 2 Berserkers, 2 Catchers, 5 Linemen, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary - 1190k with 160 to spend. Here I think you want block on your Ulfs, MB on your Troll, and dodge on your catchers. Everyone else gets sacked. No one will probably make it to season 3.

Nurgle - 1 Rotspawn, 4 Bloaters, 4 Pestigors, 3 Rotters, 3 Rerolls = 1215k with 135k to spend. Here you take block on every player you can. This team is going to suck no matter what you do but block may help a bit.

Ogres - 1 Runt Punter, 5 Ogres, 10 Runts, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1255k with 95k to spend. I don't have the book in front of me but I thought the max was 4 ogres but the ogre roster page shows 5 so I will go with it. In any event, if this is correct, you will not have much to spend on skills. If you roll with 4 ogres you probably want one more reroll.

Chaos Chosen 1 Ogre, 4 Warriors, 7 Beastmen, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1190k with 160k to spend. This one is tricky. The team is starved for core skills. If you have enough players with core skills, you may want to drop the ogre to keep them. Still, over 15 games, I don't know that you will skill enough players that you want to drop the big fella. Down grading to a troll may be the best choice.

Chaos Dwarfs - 1 Mino, 2 Bull Centaurs, 6 Dwarfs, 3 Hobgoblins, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1210k with 140 to spend. Again, this one is tricky. Most people will probably drop the minotaur to get more skills on the dwarfs and bulls. Doing so would probably get you another 5 skills throughout the team.

Elven Union 4 Catchers, 2 Blitzers, 2 Throwers, 4 Linemen, 3Rerolls, Apothecary= 1220k with 130k to spend. like their high elf cousins, the Pro Elves are starved for base skills. Spend the gold on players with block or dodge. If you have enough of those, consider playing season 2 with fewer catchers to incorporate the skills the team earned.

Tomb Kings - 4 Tomb Guardians, 2 Blitz-RAs, 2 Throw-Ras, 4 Skeletons, 3 Rerolls = 1090 TV with 260k to spend. Here you will obvious rehire as many players as you can as you have more to spend than most teams. They also skill slowly so you may be able to rebuy most of your team in season 2.

Halflings - 2 Treemen, 2 Hefties, 2 catchers, 10 Hopefuls, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 980k with 370k to spend. Rehire your trees, get an agility increase on a fling or two which you will rehire. Take random skills on the other flings and keep ones you like.


Last edited by Kondor on Jun 19, 2021 - 16:56; edited 2 times in total
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 19, 2021 - 06:24 Reply with quote Back to top

A lot of those are not good builds at the bloatiest of times. If you're packing the punch for your TV, which you're probably going to want to in rebuys, give or take for hugging some particularly fun pixels ...

Dorfs: 1 runner, 2 slayers, 2 blitzers, 6 blockers, 1 Apo, 2 RRs.
1005k, or solo slayer too for 980k, gives you 17/18 x(seasons + skills),

Might carry a legend stat runner and and a couple star hitters, or a few guards. No way I drop two guards for a 12th man, but might drop a team RR to 1 and buy it back quickly. I think random strength skills on the blockers late season with MVP is fine, getting even one through cheaper with Grab/Guard/MB is good business, though of course, anyone sitting on 20spp or so can keep it for season 2 and grab a couple more skills for game 2.

Orcs expensive, but 4 big uns, 4 blitzer, troll, 2 lino, plus Apo and 2 RR.
1065k, or maybe a round 990 swapping out the troll for a goblin.

So 14-18 x(seasons + skills), looking at a good stat blitzer and a desperate need to support him as his cost is a fair whack of that. Have you seen Impak?
https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=12205794
200k rebuy fees now, in SWL, and he's loving it, be only 140k in C division for something like that, plus a bit for the +strength and double.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 19, 2021 - 07:15 Reply with quote Back to top

@Tussock - If you want 3 rerolls with any team it is more efficient to buy them at the start of the season rather than pay double once the season progresses. Hence, I went with a minimum of 3 to start the season. At 1350 a 12th man is probably a good idea on any team including dwarfs.

On dwarfs, I think I will run two teams in the competitive system and see which I like best. One will be random skills and the other will be chosen skills. I tend to think that the chosen skills will work the best. Block on the runners and guard on everything else. I probably will not run a build with the deathroller but if I did, I think 13 players would be essential for the team rather than running short handed for one half of the game.

Also, MVPs will be random so your blockers are going to take a long time to skill up. Your postional players are going to be the SPP hogs. Sure getting a lucky skill up on a lineman is good but you won't have many of them. Spring for the extra 10k and make sure he gets something useful.

Now I am looking at the Orc Blitzer you mention. He is a beauty that comes in at least at 240k before agent fees. (I'm not sure the +St is calculated under the old or new system.)
If he is part of the initial rebuy, he will cost his coach at least 260k vs an 80k rookie. It means he will probably be the only player rehired on the team and you will have to cut rerolls back to 1. As lovely as he is, I don't think he can carry the team by himself. (At least he couldn't if I were the coach.)
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 19, 2021 - 08:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Don't disagree for BB16, RRs are hard to afford, but for my eye, at 15 games, 80k per game or so winnings by 2nd season, could buy +2 RRs by game 4, and then bench and replacements one per game or two, mid season you're gunna be looking at inducements to spend up on. But you can't buy skills.

Just for me, a relatively long season, I want the best team I can have at the tail end of it, get something good together for a tourney before they get too fussy about agents fees. Very Happy

And of course, getting smashed off the park after running out of RRs and no bench means less winnings early and yeah, it'll be interesting. Very Happy

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 19, 2021 - 17:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah the massive increase to winnings is definitely huge to me. For instance, on a Nurgle team, I'd probably consider cutting the rotspawn and at least one bloater in order to keep one highly skilled player (like a block tackle mb pestigor) each season.

Same thing on most of the elf teams, I'd be perfectly willing to cut a re-roll if it meant I could keep an agi 1+ player who can do shenanigans, and each season try to get a new agi 1+ player to keep agent fees down.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 19, 2021 - 17:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not sure I would rebuy 90% of big guys (ie loner roll bigs) - in a low-mid TV meta buying a 0 skill big later or sacrificing him completely for 110k+ of rebuy fees is the option I would be more likely to go for in many cases.

I also wouldn't be looking at full positionals on many rosters.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 20, 2021 - 04:31 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
I'm not sure I would rebuy 90% of big guys (ie loner roll bigs) - in a low-mid TV meta buying a 0 skill big later or sacrificing him completely for 110k+ of rebuy fees is the option I would be more likely to go for in many cases.

I also wouldn't be looking at full positionals on many rosters.


Yeah. I can see that. My teams are developed enough that when we switch over it will make sense to keep some very skilled players and pay the rehire fee. In that case it makes sense to leave the big fellas off some of the teams. They will become more attractive on teams that acquire skills slowly.

Perhaps they are the better buy for converted teams in subsequent seasons when multi skilled players become more expensive to keep.

Also, it depends on how matchmaking is done. If it is still strict TV matching you would be more correct. However, if we go with a more randomized pairing then you will rely more on the new inducements. Any gold you give away to Agent fees TV you are giving away to start a season. It also gives you an incentive to skill a couple of players really quickly so that you can pay the agents for a few seasons.

If you want to give as little gold as possible to the agents you will want Dark Elves, Wood Elves, or Dwarfs with a roller. This way you get as many skills as possible at the lowest possible cost.

I don't know. There are too many thoughts going through my head right now to keep it straight.
Medon



Joined: Jan 28, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 20, 2021 - 09:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Please keep in mind that the TV system js highly arbitrary. The true value of skills on the pitch can be very different than the TV value. If you have a game winning piece (ag5 wrestle strip ball leaper for example) you want to rebuy that one always because it is worth its TV twice. Just let the agent be happy with his 20k and let yourself be happy with your brilliant player - win-win!
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 20, 2021 - 17:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Medon wrote:
Please keep in mind that the TV system js highly arbitrary. The true value of skills on the pitch can be very different than the TV value. If you have a game winning piece (ag5 wrestle strip ball leaper for example) you want to rebuy that one always because it is worth its TV twice. Just let the agent be happy with his 20k and let yourself be happy with your brilliant player - win-win!


I get your point but that particular combination will not be as effective or TV efficient in the new edition.

That is why I advocate chosen over random skills. A handful of skills are just that much better than the rest.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 20, 2021 - 21:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Have a bad season and you won't get 1350.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2021 - 00:04 Reply with quote Back to top

That would be pretty difficult koadah. 1000k + 20k for a win +15k for a draw +10k for a loss + treasury; that means, assuming you lose literally all the time, you end up with 1150k + treasury. 200k can reasonably be saved up over 4-5 games (assuming you are always losing), so if you realize that, you can easily be ready to reach 1350k by the end. Those people who won't realize that, probably won't be that interested in trying to maintain 1350k anyway.

If you win 4/tie 7/lose 4, then you'll end up with 1225k, meaning you only need 125k treasury to max out - 2-3 games would be enough to build up that treasury.

Yes it's possible you'll lose so many players that you simply can't keep that kind of treasury, but I think (given current practices), teams that get beat up THAT badly will simply retire anyway, and so the redraft rules won't matter anyway.

I don't think the majority of teams who are going to bother redrafting at all, will ever have serious problems reaching 1350 (or very close); and those who might, I think will specifically be the coaches that aren't worried about it anyway.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2021 - 00:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
I was thinking of what you can get at 1350 TV on different teams as this is where most of mine will start when we go to BB2020.

Nice idea but some of these seem super bloated for 2020 Rules.

Assuming we are rehiring players with two skills, and one season played, they are 60k each. That gets us 4 rehired players for 240k; meaning we want a base TV around 1100. I expect most teams will have to buy their Apo again after the first match and then get some extra TRR after the 3rd-5th games of the season.

Kondor wrote:

Dark Elves - 4 Blitzers, 2 Witches, 2 Runners, 2 Assassins, 2 Lineman, 3 rerolls, apothecary= 1290 TV - This leaves you 60k for skills and agent fees. You could quibble and get another 20k if you swapped one assassin and one runner for line elves. Still not much more to work with.

Dark Elves - 4 Blitzers, 2 Witches, 5 Lineman, 2 TRR = 1070
I might squeeze in a Runner or third TRR depending on what skilled players I have.

Kondor wrote:

Orcs 1 Troll, 4 Black Orcs, 4 Blitzers, 2 Throwers, 1 Goblin, 1 Line Orc, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1,245k with 105k to spend. 5 skills or less on the team. Keep block on your BoBs that have it and Mighty Blow on Blitzers. Sack anyone else.

Orcs4 Blockers, 4 Blitzers, 3 Line Orc, 3 TRR = 1010.
We can probably afford the Apo here. Save up for the Troll and rehire as many skilled positionals as we can afford.


Kondor wrote:

Elven Union 4 Catchers, 2 Blitzers, 2 Throwers, 4 Linemen, 3Rerolls, Apothecary= 1220k

Elven Union 3 Catchers, 2 Blitzers, 2 Throwers, 4 Linemen, 2 TRR, Apothecary= 1070k
Tough choice between third TRR and Apo. As much as I want the fourth catcher not sure you can aford to take another expensive player without dodge.


Kondor wrote:

Wood Elves - Treeman. 2 Wardancers, 2 Throwers, 2 Catchers, 5 Linemen, 3 Rerolls, Apothecary = 1290k

Wood Elves - Treeman, 2 Wardancers, 1 Throwers, 2 Catchers, 5 Linemen, 2 TRR = 1095
If I had the extra 20k I might get the second Thrower or go the other way and take an extra linemen if that 30k will be better spent elsewhere.

koadah wrote:
Have a bad season and you won't get 1350.

Going to have to very bad thought to not get 1350!
Season is 15 games = +150k.
Even if you lose all 15 games you still getting at least 20k winning every match; probably more. You need 200k in Treasury less 5k for each draw you match during the season.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2021 - 02:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Ah, OK

I was going by the conversion script. Some of those teams are cash-poor.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2021 - 03:48 Reply with quote Back to top

@Lyracian - I am not so sure about how bloated those are at 1350 TV. I think at that TV you will want 13 players. I also think you want 3 rerolls and an APO.

The question becomes how efficient it is to rehire players.

It seems to me the most efficient players are those straight out of the box. After that you want to stack as many skills as you can on as few players as possible to avoid paying the agent fees.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2021 - 08:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
@Lyracian - I am not so sure about how bloated those are at 1350 TV. I think at that TV you will want 13 players. I also think you want 3 rerolls and an APO.

The question becomes how efficient it is to rehire players.

I think we have two different views on the efficient way to redraft. Both have merit


Your Dark Elf team 1290 TV = 60k for Skills. One skilled player with two skills.
My Dark Elf team = 1070 TV = 280k for skills.
Three Blitzers with Dodge, Side step
One Blitzer (or Lineman) with Dodge
One Witch with Wrestle, Tackle

Once they have two skills you can wait until you have 24 SPP before buying more so I think it is resaonable to hold those players ready for the redraft. Nothing is certain, you may get a death in the last game, but that gives us a plan.

Your team ends up being 1330 TV mine 1250 TV. Yours has a reserve and an Apo but with all that Blodge mine will take less knock downs. 80 of Inducements means I can have a Keg and Temp Coach for the match. I just do not see the additions you are taking as efficient for starting the next season?

Once you reach season 3 or 4 and these players are too expensive, with agency fees, then I think your idea of buying a 1200-1300 TV team has more merit. This might come down to better long term planning though as you might be better off making sure you have 2-3 fresh positionals each season so they can be skilled up ready to carry over into the next each time.

Using Dark Elves as the example again if I have 2 Blitzers and 1 Witch new each season and the other 3 are rehired then I will always be in a position of having those key three players available with only 20k agency fee.


Nelphine wrote:

Yes it's possible you'll lose so many players that you simply can't keep that kind of treasury, but I think (given current practices), teams that get beat up THAT badly will simply retire anyway, and so the redraft rules won't matter anyway.

I am not sure there is ever a reason to retire with the redraft rules. New teams start at 1000 TV. Even if you have 11 J-men you will still get 1200-1350 TV when you redraft and can build a better team than if you started again. In fact going forward I am not sure it is worth having more than 1 of each race in the open league as they are likely to all start looking the same very quickly.
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