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dolphinandrew



Joined: May 09, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 19:34 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
My experience are that you gain roughly the same advantage from random skills as chosen skills in general. The thing about random is just that random... in some cases you get slightly less in some cases slightly more... it is going to be very marginal difference.


That rather assumes the utility of the skills is fairly evenly distributed around some skill of about average utility. But I don't think that's really the case for most of the skill groups.

Block is just (most of the time) an awful lot better than the other general skills, for instance.

IMO, utility in a lot of the skills groups doesn't really look like a normal curve for most players. In a lot of cases, it's more like an exponential.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 19:44 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
The SPPs must be spent wisely or not spent at all. So, if the Lineman is not a fodder one (say, an Elf Lineman or Dwarf Blocker) I save up to 6 SPPs and I pick the skill.
If he's a fodder one (Hobgoblin, Zombie, Thrall, Orc lineman) either I don't skill him up or I randomize the skill if I can replace him if the random skill is bad.

I even cycle Goblin at 6 SPPs fishing for either Sure Hands/Block.

I would use the same approach in a private league. TVMM doesn't make difference, I play considering the efficiency of my team in the next game.
I even replace MNG Blitzers with 2 skills just to have 4 Blitzers for the next game.
If with BB2016 I used to cycle players, I'm doing it way more with BB2020.
After all, there is no long-term development and there are no "special" players with stat boosts/double to keep when MNG, so it's the cycling edition.


You can play that way if you wish... not necessarily the best way though... someone that pick random skills on some players and then at season end only keep the ones with good skills will have a leg up on you in the next season, that is just how it will be.

Also... in relatively short leagues you might not be flooding with cash either... depends quite allot what team you play with though.

We also use the optional Mercenary rules and that is usually better to spend the cash to replace a temporary lost player for a game rather than hire a new player.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 19:51 Reply with quote Back to top

When you show me with actual games here on FUMBBL that your random skill approach works I will trust you.


Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 17, 2021 - 19:56; edited 1 time in total
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 19:54 Reply with quote Back to top

dolphinandrew wrote:
CAB wrote:
My experience are that you gain roughly the same advantage from random skills as chosen skills in general. The thing about random is just that random... in some cases you get slightly less in some cases slightly more... it is going to be very marginal difference.


That rather assumes the utility of the skills is fairly evenly distributed around some skill of about average utility. But I don't think that's really the case for most of the skill groups.

Block is just (most of the time) an awful lot better than the other general skills, for instance.

IMO, utility in a lot of the skills groups doesn't really look like a normal curve for most players. In a lot of cases, it's more like an exponential.


Sure... I think it often is very difficult to value a skill completely. In my opinion each skill should have been individually valued... so Block might have a value of 20k while Dauntless a value of say 10k. That is a randomly selected Dauntless would cost you 10k and a randomly selected Block would cost you 20k. If you select Block you have to pay 40k for it and 20k for Dauntless.
Just as an example... unfortunately we don't have this method of valuing skills.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 19:58 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
When you show me with actual games here on FUMBBL that your random skill approach works I will trust you.


I only play tabletop BB these days as time is something you have to juggle between all different things.. so that are likely never going to happen any time soon.

You probably can see someone else do that in some league here eventually though.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 20:03 Reply with quote Back to top

For the record, please is it possible to know your league team composition and the team you play there?
For example, if you play Norse taking random skills on Linos can work.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 22:04 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm playing in two different Leagues and in one BB7 league at the moment... in both regular leagues I play Nobility for testing them out...

In general I have gone with Random on Linemen and Guard on the Bodyguards and then random Strength same with the Ogre... that have worked quite well so far. Obviously chosen skills on the Blitzes and Throwers.

Composition of the first League is Black Orc, Necromantic, Snotlings and Wood Elves... The other one is Goblins, Orcs, Dwarves, Chaos and Skaven. If that makes any difference... which I don't think that it does.

I don't think it really matters all that much...
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 17, 2021 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Thank you!
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 19, 2021 - 06:52 Reply with quote Back to top

stej wrote:
Winning games is the only real definition of playing competative. CR is a byproduct of winning. Going in with a 10TV advantage on a random skill should increase your chance of winning

In theory. In practice it depends on the skill and the team you're facing.
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 19, 2021 - 09:43 Reply with quote Back to top

All things being equal, but one team having an extra skill (even something relatively useless, like iron skin or whatever it's called), gives you a situation where one team is at least as good, if not better than the other team. Whilst marginal, it should give you a potential advantage.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 19, 2021 - 12:56 Reply with quote Back to top

I would probably agree that if you are chasing CR ratings then a marginal advantage might probably not offset the increase in TV if you loose or even draw such a game. The advantage is not big enough.
There probably is a strong case where you roll random and hope for a good skill and if you don't get it you kick the player off the team. Block is obviously worth more as 10k rather than 20k. But that is only really worthwhile doing in a perpetual league where your TV is more important.

If you only play for points in a League then pretty much any advantage is more or less just a bonus as the extra money the opponent get rarely will give them the same advantage in return. You also don't face other teams based on your TV but on a schedule so there are not the same reason to keep your TV lean either as long as you don't bloat it too much.

If you do all random you probably will not do as well as going with a healthy mix... there still is a high value of synergy between skills that can't be ignored.
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