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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 17:47 Reply with quote Back to top


The proposed parameters for [SL]2020 seasons are here.

If you have an interest and would like to comment, please post here.

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Last edited by koadah on Oct 12, 2021 - 21:26; edited 1 time in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 17:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:

I would be in heaven if the Secret League had a scheduler like Black Box. With any luck, secret league will make adjustments so that teams can hover around the 2020 equivalent of 2000 TV.


The current proposals don't support that. Creating another league with no seasons would lead to fragmentation and maybe no one getting a game.

Though I suppose we could just say "**** seasons". That would lead to some nightmare teams though TV/TW limits would help.

I believe that 2016 style skill progression doesn't work yet. More seasons options to allow hovering would be even further down the line if at all.

Short seasons and more cash might do it.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 20:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't quite have a handle on what the 2020 equivalent of a 2000 TV team would be. Random skills for 10k mean you can quickly stack skills on a player. However, the most reliable skills will probably be chosen ones so they are easier to wrap my mind around. Also, with random MVPs, the players would skill more slowly if they are not taking random skills.

I also wonder if one of the easiest ways to allow a higher TV without warping the intent would be to just eliminate agent fees. Just set them at 0. While I understand the intent, to me, the fees just add nothing to the game.

Honestly, outside of the agent fees, I think the set up as it is proposed is a good place to start and make adjustments later if it is needed. If changes need to be made, I would make adjustments by increasing or decreasing the cap.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 20:47
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Aren’t your base budget and cap both off by a factor of 10?

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 20:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Cutting agents fees to 10k would be nice. 5k would probably be a bit toothless.

You should still be able to get to a decent TV when starting from 1600.
It is the cut that gets me.

Agents fees should really be per skill added NOT per season played IMO. That would be a great option I think. That is a bit like LRB4.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 21:04 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:
Aren’t your base budget and cap both off by a factor of 10?


I don't think so. I cribbed them from [C].

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 22:13
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Ah, my mistake. On a phone it chops off the last digit Smile

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razmus



Joined: Jun 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 22:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Pretty much everyone is gonna get that cap at 1600TV.

My bias... I see a ton of games at the low-mid TV. I see a tiny handful at the higher TVs. If the idea is to make adjustments later, I'd lean more heavily in the direction of matching the season values from [C], and adjust from there... (in the belief that it's easier to give things away later than it is to take them away.) Smile
The currently proposed SL20 values are already a compromise between seasons and not having seasons. Smile The current agent fees at 20k are, I believe, the only concession which will keep do anything to keep team TVs where the bulk of folks will actually play.

Hmm *whisper* 102/110 *whisper*

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 22:36 Reply with quote Back to top

It is already taking stuff away.

The argument was already made in the other thread. People who preferred lower TV could already play at lower TV. Seasons take away higher TV.

Edit: We could cut the compromise. Use [C] style seasons in the main [SL]2020 and have a separate no seasons league that teams can transfer to if they cannot face the cut.

I might even start it at 1100k or 1150k Smile

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 23:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Should be 20/10/0 for wdl, average team still only need 150k treasury.

Big teams will be less skill dense, but there's huge income so RR and bench can fill out easily in 15.

Might go a shorter season, 10 games but the same cap, could be maxed out in 20 games rather than 30 then, which might get you more people competitive in the cups.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 07:41 Reply with quote Back to top

The draw for me to SL over the competitive division is simply the ability to build teams and keep players longer. I feel as few limits as possible should be placed on the division.

I would like to see teams be able to hover around 2000 TV if they choose to do so. If I were the commissioner I would start by setting something outrageous like a 30 game season but a hard redraft cap at 1800 TV at the new season.

I would especially do that IF there will be no black box style scheduler for SL. Who cares if you build a monster squad if that means you will not be able to get games with them because no one plays at the high TV. If that is what you are experiencing, you will choose to end your season and redraft lower TV.

Likewise, if you don't want to play against those types of teams you simply don't accept the game offer. There is no harm done to anyone and everyone can enjoy the game as they like to play it.

For tournaments you could choose to have an entry cap if the tournament commissioner anticipates insane entries.
bram



Joined: Jan 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 11:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
The draw for me to SL over the competitive division is simply the ability to build teams and keep players longer. I feel as few limits as possible should be placed on the division.



+1
razmus



Joined: Jun 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 13:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
I would like to see teams be able to hover around 2000 TV if they choose to do so.


The challenge of course is, there are a few folks who want to run teams in that range, but few folks want to face those teams. When really large, old teams clash and the dice turn against them... we've seen coaches decide to retire their team in the heat of anger, or in extreme cases... retire all their teams and leave the environment.

The proposed season settings will, I believe allow coaches to very easily expand to 1700-1750 in game two, especially with teams which enjoy having a bench. I assume most teams will spend most of their time in the 1700-2200 range during the [SL] season with these settings if they so desire (and aren't one of the teams which struggles to keep players even without seasons).

Some folks want to have teams that large, but far fewer folks seem to want to play against other teams in that range. My perception is that teams reach that size and every once in a great while get to play a game. When I took over the OW Brawls, I created a category for teams larger than 2000TW, and offered to run those tournaments. In those eighteen months, we've had exactly zero tournaments in that range. In fact, we've only had a total of THREE coaches who have submitted teams in that range*. (*maybe four... there is a team which keeps fluctuating back and forth across that line.) My perception is that teams that size which stay that size tend to kill off leagues and suppress game play in open environments because no one wants to play against them. In the local TT environment, almost no one had any wish to play against the multi-season dwarves which dominated the league... to the league dropped to an unsustainable two and a half coaches, until seasons in the 2016 rules were implemented, and suddenly something like fifteen coaches were found to be interested in playing TT bloodbowl in the league. If SL were to get a box-like scheduler -- I suspect we'd see a repeat of people avoiding activating their teams at certain times of the day to avoid having to play against certain teams, just as we saw happen in the [B]ox environment. My personal belief is the currently proposed SL Season settings are the minimum settings which will help mitigate those game suppressing conditions. (But that's just my perception and opinion.)

In short, I believe seasons will make both the league AND open play healthier, and encourage additional gameplay at all TV levels.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 13:53 Reply with quote Back to top

razmus wrote:
Kondor wrote:
I would like to see teams be able to hover around 2000 TV if they choose to do so.


The challenge of course is, there are a few folks who want to run teams in that range, but few folks want to face those teams. When really large, old teams clash and the dice turn against them... we've seen coaches decide to retire their team in the heat of anger, or in extreme cases... retire all their teams and leave the environment.

The proposed season settings will, I believe allow coaches to very easily expand to 1700-1750 in game two, especially with teams which enjoy having a bench. I assume most teams will spend most of their time in the 1700-2200 range during the [SL] season with these settings if they so desire (and aren't one of the teams which struggles to keep players even without seasons).

Some folks want to have teams that large, but far fewer folks seem to want to play against other teams in that range. My perception is that teams reach that size and every once in a great while get to play a game. When I took over the OW Brawls, I created a category for teams larger than 2000TW, and offered to run those tournaments. In those eighteen months, we've had exactly zero tournaments in that range. In fact, we've only had a total of THREE coaches who have submitted teams in that range*. (*maybe four... there is a team which keeps fluctuating back and forth across that line.) My perception is that teams that size which stay that size tend to kill off leagues and suppress game play in open environments because no one wants to play against them. In the local TT environment, almost no one had any wish to play against the multi-season dwarves which dominated the league... to the league dropped to an unsustainable two and a half coaches, until seasons in the 2016 rules were implemented, and suddenly something like fifteen coaches were found to be interested in playing TT bloodbowl in the league. If SL were to get a box-like scheduler -- I suspect we'd see a repeat of people avoiding activating their teams at certain times of the day to avoid having to play against certain teams, just as we saw happen in the [B]ox environment. My personal belief is the currently proposed SL Season settings are the minimum settings which will help mitigate those game suppressing conditions. (But that's just my perception and opinion.)

In short, I believe seasons will make both the league AND open play healthier, and encourage additional gameplay at all TV levels.


If you are correct and people do not want to play against high TV teams, then high TV teams will not be able to get games and the issue will solve itself. If you are correct, without the Black Box system, the teams will reach a point where either they don't get games or the coach decides to end a season and redraft at a lower TV.

No harm done, but people keep the teams the love at that TV if they so choose.

Having said that, if there is a SL Black Box I can understand the need to implement limits like this.

As for tournaments, I can only speak for myself. I love them but I normally cannot commit to a game time. I would love to do a regular league or regular tournaments but my life schedule does not allow it. I suspect I am not alone.
razmus



Joined: Jun 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 14:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
If you are correct and people do not want to play against high TV teams, then high TV teams will not be able to get games and the issue will solve itself. If you are correct, without the Black Box system, the teams will reach a point where either they don't get games or the coach decides to end a season and redraft at a lower TV.

No harm done, but people keep the teams the love at that TV if they so choose.


And I believe you just described the SL2016 environment going forward, except without the option of a formal season/redraft.

Kondor wrote:
Having said that, if there is a SL Black Box I can understand the need to implement limits like this.


And before I say this, "I have zero non-public information, I'm just going based on what I remember Garion saying in Discord." So now... I believe there was discussion of exactly this. Don't know what the future holds, but after everything else has come off the todo list, I'd sincerely love to see this. (And in the discord, Garion was talking about doing away with GF for SLO and ONLY having a random scheduler.)

Kondor wrote:
As for tournaments, I can only speak for myself. I love them but I normally cannot commit to a game time. I would love to do a regular league or regular tournaments but my life schedule does not allow it. I suspect I am not alone.


Unfortunately I'm mostly on the other end of that scale -- if I don't get a game on the calendar to block out the time, I can rarely play. Ideally whatever system(s) are put in place are satisfactory for both game styles.
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