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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: May 19, 2022 - 23:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Pile driver seems to exist to add the "risk" part of the risk/reward option of random skills. In general, I am feeling like the Strength category has too many poor, useless or ill-fitting skills on the wrong player to be worth using randoms on. General and Agility skills are better bang for buck when going random.

I can't see why you would ever intentionally choose the Pile Driver skill, but I get trying to make it work if you lucked out on the skill roll.

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Candlejack



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: May 20, 2022 - 00:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Pile driver does NOT give you an additional foul action. You can just use your regular foul action.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2022 - 00:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
Pile driver seems to exist to add the "risk" part of the risk/reward option of random skills.

Indeed, but then they could have just added a "training failure" result to some of the 12 possible ones, rather than adding poorly designed skills that will never be taken.
For example: "your player didn't train hard enough, he failed to learn a skill" result, and he wasted the SPPs.
This way there would still be a risk (losing SPPs for no skill earned/benefit of gaining a cheap random skill), but at least a skill slot would have not been occupied by a useless skill such as Pile Driver.
I know it's impossible to invent 12 skills perfectly balanced, but on the other hand there should be no useless skills. If some skills are more useful and some others are less useful, it's acceptable, but no skill should be a wasted skill slot.

Other ideas could have been (one of the following):
1) you can roll 2 random skills and pick one;
2) you roll a random skill, if you don't like it you can refuse it (SPPs are wasted, to keep it a gamble).

The important thing is not wasting a skill slot with a random useless skill, because wasting a skill slot can ruin a player's build.
To prevent exploits, this "gamble random skill roll" could be capped at max 1 random skill roll per each player after every match (fluff: training requires time).

Don't get me wrong, the random skill idea is not bad, I like the concept, but it could be improved.
I would like that players (maybe not the positionals, just the linemen) rolled random skills and you had to adapt your game play around them (it would be a tactical challenge in itself), but, for this to work, all the skills should be useful, more or less.
What I don't like is getting totally useless skills just bloating my team for no real benefit in the games, especially if the race I play has expensive linemen I can't easily cycle.


Last edited by MattDakka on May 20, 2022 - 01:53; edited 1 time in total
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: May 20, 2022 - 01:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Pile Driver could use an update. Would be slightly more interesting if it had part of the sneaky git functionality -> send off only on a double of the injury roll. I doubt this would make it great, but enough to use it situationally.

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Octochicken



Joined: May 17, 2022

Post   Posted: May 20, 2022 - 11:11 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
Iam all in for a skill that gives me 2 fouls in a turn. Just saying. Heck if I have 4 guys with Pile Drive, I can get up to 5 fouls a turn.

It is a "vegas soul" outlook on life, roll some dice and if they come up good? If they come up bad?

Is this a required skill, hell no, does it increase your chances of removing players, heck yeah. Just depends on your style of play.


But that is not how Piledriver works. You still only get one foul per turn. What Piledriver allows you to do is use that foul action after a successful block action in addition to said block action.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2022 - 12:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Yep, cleared up in the first FAQ, sadly, it's a free foul, but still only one foul per turn.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: May 20, 2022 - 13:15 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:
Yep, cleared up in the first FAQ, sadly, it's a free foul, but still only one foul per turn.


GW and their FAQs and errata are annoying. They should not be necessary. I should be able to show up at a game with my original rules and not be surprised because I did not notice the most recent FAQ. Additionally, the FAQs also go too far. Pile Driver is an example of that. They should stick to their own Rules as Written as much as possible.

The RAW says PD provides a free foul. The FAQ should either say that it is a foul in addition to the normal team foul, or it is a foul that will not be spotted by the ref. Either of those would be a legitimate way to interpret FREE.

Unfortunately PD is only one of those. There are others.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2022 - 13:44
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tussock wrote:
Yep, cleared up in the first FAQ, sadly, it's a free foul, but still only one foul per turn.


I didn't know that. That sucks. That makes an already pretty poor skill completely useless...

Good FAQ! Very Happy

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2022 - 21:12 Reply with quote Back to top

It's important to have some sucky skills, because of randoms.

Like, look at the Rat Ogre. 3 SPP and you get one of: Arm Bar, Brawler, Break Tackle, Guard, Juggernaut, Multiple Block, Pile Driver, Stand Firm, or Thick Skull. He has ST5, Prehensile Tail, Frenzy, and AV9+ with a high price tag so Thick Skull is pretty good on him too.

A: Guard, Juggernaut, Stand Firm.
B: Brawler, Break Tackle, Multiple Block, Thick Skull.
C: Arm Bar (maybe a C+, goes up to a B+ if you have Stand Firm).
D: Pile Driver.
F: none.

If Pile Driver were better, that would be a broken track.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2022 - 21:23 Reply with quote Back to top

If nobody takes Pile Driver it's just like having a "no skill" result.
It would be better to write: "no skill learned".
A sucky skill which has some uses, although not super good, such as Arm Bar, at least can have an impact sometimes.
Pile Driver will not be used unless it's turn 16 or some very rare situations which are not worth a skill slot.
On a Rat Ogre you pick either Juggernaut or Guard, Brawler maybe, or, if you want to buy General, Block and Pro.
A Frenzy Loner Big Guy must be as reliable as possible when blocking.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2022 - 21:34 Reply with quote Back to top

My point was that if Pile Driver didn't suck, random primaries on a Rat Ogre would be insanely good. You don't pick any of them, you pick the one Nuffle gives you for half TV add, half SPP cost, and only a 1 in 9 chance of rolling a skill you're not at least "pretty happy" with at half cost/add. (Sure, some are better than others, but even Arm Bar and Multiple Block are nice on this player.)

And even then, in a league environment, Pile Driver on a Rat Ogre is okayish, gives you another bite at the apple sometimes, late in a decided game when "ejected" really just means "safe." I wouldn't want it on a chosen skill, and would feel a little bummed if I rolled it, but if I did roll it, it's not worth replacing a 150k player for. Especially that now he has zero chance of rolling another bad skill.

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Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2022 - 21:43 Reply with quote Back to top

They could have made Pile Driver differently. For example, you get another AV roll (maybe without damage modifiers, to keep it balanced) but the Pile Driver player is automatically Stunned (he falls upon the opponent and he requires time to roll and get up).
Not very good but not useless either, and not mindless (because the Pile Driver player could be fouled).
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2022 - 23:41
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JackassRampant wrote:
It's important to have some sucky skills, because of randoms.

Like, look at the Rat Ogre. 3 SPP and you get one of: Arm Bar, Brawler, Break Tackle, Guard, Juggernaut, Multiple Block, Pile Driver, Stand Firm, or Thick Skull. He has ST5, Prehensile Tail, Frenzy, and AV9+ with a high price tag so Thick Skull is pretty good on him too.

A: Guard, Juggernaut, Stand Firm.
B: Brawler, Break Tackle, Multiple Block, Thick Skull.
C: Arm Bar (maybe a C+, goes up to a B+ if you have Stand Firm).
D: Pile Driver.
F: none.

If Pile Driver were better, that would be a broken track.


That's pretty generous. For my 2p it would read:
A: Guard, Juggernaut
B: Break Tackle, Stand Firm
C:
D:
F: All the others

And I'm still likely to save up for a chosen secondary and just take Block

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: May 21, 2022 - 03:40 Reply with quote Back to top

no no

S: Guard
A: Stand Firm
B: nothing but keep your spp and can't roll again till after next game
C: Break Tackle, Juggernaut, Arm Bar, Thick Skull, Brawler
D: nothing but lose your spp
F: Pile Driver, Multiple Block
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: May 21, 2022 - 18:43 Reply with quote Back to top

To each his own, but the more marginal stuff you can work with, the more TV you can save. For me, if I can see a good application for most of the skills in a category, and I can either suck it up or fire the player on a bad roll, I'm taking randoms. Pricier players with clear tracks get chosen primary skills, or maaaaaaybe Block as a chosen secondary on a big. (Gawd, I hate doing that: usually I'll roll a random first skill in that case, and take Block second if I like what I got first.)

To tie this back to OP, don't take randoms on 90k players, unless you'd literally be happy with anything, or you don't care about the money and a rookie can do the job. Randoms are for linemen and a few specific players, like the above Rat Ogre (IMO), or your third Undead Ghoul, or maybe a Human Thrower who just doesn't love any skill selection but can build around most of them and can also easily be replaced with a competent rookie.

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