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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2022 - 19:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
right, but recall part of the reason for the trophy is to increase variety. so we want to encourage people to use races that aren't played as much. so you wouldn't want to drop the points to where all teams are roughly equal.

Yes, true
That was definitely a factor in CRP where the meta was Chaos / Nurgle claw doom
It's less of a factor now though I'd say

Top 10 most popular factions in [C] are currently:
Orc
Black Orc
Khorne
Human
Necromantic Horror
Norse
Skaven
Underworld Denizens
Dwarf
Shambling Undead

Which to me looks reasonably healthy.. perhaps a bit too bashy
We don't have any data on what it'll look like with a Scheduler yet though

The only levers we have to adjust this, is moving teams up and down the brackets, and tweaking the value of bonus points
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 11, 2022 - 19:03 Reply with quote Back to top

@Christer is it recorded anywhere what method a game was arranged by? Scheduler vs Gamefinder?
Ideally on the match report + somewhere koadah can get it

Many thanks
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2022 - 11:34
FUMBBL Staff
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[quote="tussock"]
Christer wrote:
This is a 15-game season giving 2.5 per point, which may have been a simple error, rather than intentional.


Sp00keh wrote:
Another issue is, how much should the bonus points be worth?


Yes, the 2.5 points per unused was a copy/paste error. At this point, I'm not sure if the mistake is worth fixing considering the amount of squads that have already been made. I would have set it to 1.5 which is a slight bonus over higher tier teams in order to encourage diversity.

Should we keep it as-is, or change? Maybe we'll just call this a low-tier meta and leave it as-is and change it for the next season based on the numbers we get for this one.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2022 - 11:56 Reply with quote Back to top

For next Trophy, to increase racial variety: what about, instead of a squad with 4 races playing 15 games each, a squad of 8 races playing 7 games each?
That could increase racial variety and would more closely match the 7-game Season of the official rules.
fxiii



Joined: Oct 30, 2012

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2022 - 12:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Just finished my first run in 7 days 1/2 Smile

a little blog about my week of intense playing :p

https://fumbbl.com/p/blog?c=fxiii&id=24233

Big thanks Christer, fumbbl staff and all opponents Wink
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2022 - 12:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Kudos to fxiii because he played lots of high quality matches in a row in a week (I watched many), it's not easy, impressive!
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2022 - 12:41 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
For next Trophy, to increase racial variety: what about, instead of a squad with 4 races playing 15 games each, a squad of 8 races playing 7 games each?
That could increase racial variety and would more closely match the 7-game Season of the official rules.


And push TV down even further...

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2022 - 12:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Some Box Trophy teams deliberately keep the TV low (no Apo, few rrs, Leader whenever possible) because, even if they could grow, they would suck at higher TV.
For example, OWA and IN. So, there is no rush to grow already.
Also, if you play the Box Trophy, you are not aiming to play at high TV anyway.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2022 - 13:24 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Some Box Trophy teams deliberately keep the TV low (no Apo, few rrs, Leader whenever possible) because, even if they could grow, they would suck at higher TV.
For example, OWA and IN. So, there is no rush to grow already.
Also, if you play the Box Trophy, you are not aiming to play at high TV anyway.


Though, seasons are set at 15 games. I would expect some BTT teams to grow during their 15 games even if some don't.

If fewer BTT teams go past 7 games, that is fewer matches for people pressing on or 15 or playing their 2nd+ season.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2022 - 14:23 Reply with quote Back to top

About 15-game Season: although I'm not a fan of short Season (and Season as rule), on the other hand I'm starting to think that 15-game Season could be too long, because helps bash teams to develop and keep freak ball carriers (+MA is underpriced and automatic, with enough SPPs). One, if not the biggest, weakness of bash teams is slow ball carriers, if they can have fast ball carriers (able to 1TTD in some cases) they are way better.
Also, bash team players tend to hoard more easily SPPs now (because they are more durable, because CAS give SPPs and because vanity passes are harder for agile teams now).
Clawmb is not as effective as in the past to break high AV either, so high AV players tend to survive more.
So, maybe it's better to trim a bit the bash teams with a short Season. A long Season doesn't help as much agile teams.
I have developed teams, so I don't talk because I like to play at low TV and for few games only, I just consider the overall balance.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2022 - 17:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm guessing that 15 games was at least partly because off the BBT anyway.

15 looks like bit of a compromise that lets people build a bit of a team but doesn't let them get too out of hand.

10 game seasons but with more generous rebuy parameters would suit me better but wouldn't the issues that you raise. Wink

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 17, 2022 - 23:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok guys the bar has been set by coach fxiii

He has 65 total points.
So if you think you are man enough to win this damn thing you need to beat 65 total points.

Now lets look at how coach fxiii accomplished this goal and gleam some insight on how to dethrone him.

This is the break down of the 65 points.

6 PT from completing the 60 game sprint.(1.5 pts per team over 15 games) Nothing we can do about this.

7.5 pt from race selection ( he has 4 1 Pt races so he got 3 left over point for 7.5 points)
There is nothing we can do about that.

6 points because he has 4 races with the high point score...We can reduce his total if some one, any one, knocks him off as high point in that race which is worth 1.5 pts per race.

The total final record of the teams is 45 wins 1 tie and 14 losses.

SO

IF "we" beat him out on top score per race he drops 6pts and finishes with 59 points.

What does that tell us, you might ask.

IF you choose a 7 pt squad your 4 teams you will not get a bonus of finishing with a under point squad. You will get the 6 pts for finishing the sprint.

thus the only way to make up ground is to knock him out of the first place for a race OR finish.

58 wins 2 ties and 0 losses...or any combo that equals 59. That is for the tie.

There is no way to overcome the 2.5 standing point for every point left on the table at squad generation...which for fxiii is 3 point and the 7.5 standing points.

SO..good luck gentleman...

BTW...make 4 or less point squads if you want to actually compete and win this. 7 point squads basically require you to go undefeated if you want to place in the top 5.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 17, 2022 - 23:33 Reply with quote Back to top

you missed one thing; in his '59' version, thats including the 6 points for finishing. which means, you would also get those 6 points. so you 'only' need 53 points to tie him. so 53 wins or 50 wins and 6 draws, or some similar combination, if you use a 7 point squad.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 17, 2022 - 23:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
you missed one thing; in his '59' version, thats including the 6 points for finishing. which means, you would also get those 6 points. so you 'only' need 53 points to tie him. so 53 wins or 50 wins and 6 draws, or some similar combination, if you use a 7 point squad.


Good point I did omit that...so you are right you need a 53 point combo to tie and a 53.5 combo to win scenario.

Or for the guy who is a literal type of person you need to go 53-1-6 over 60 games to be #1 with a 7 point squad at a minnimum. There are tie combos to increase the score.

I think it is safe to say that coach fxiii has set the bar really high if you want to beat him.

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2022 - 01:30 Reply with quote Back to top

With a 1 point squad, if it's available to you, you'd only need 38.5 points to take the lead.

So, 38-1-21, a 64% win rate with the 3 lowest priced teams and a 1 pointer.

But, you might well be top with the 0-point rosters then, so only really 56%!

Big ask with new rookie Vamps perhaps, but a few skills they go OK, maybe mini team and inducements. Ogres and Gobs can get 50% on the right matchups not too hard for people good at them. Just need a 1-point roster to do 70% or so.

Not even that difficult, I imagine fxiii will take a crack at it at some point, and then have to resort to the 3211 and 2221 squads. Which, yeah, that might need someone like fxiii to make that sort of score. Very Happy

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