thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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 Posted:
Sep 06, 2016 - 16:39 |
 
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| almic85 wrote: | | just knowing how to play the game to the greatest level of beard possible |
Spoken like a true Dorf. |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 06, 2016 - 16:52 |
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| thoralf wrote: | | almic85 wrote: | | just knowing how to play the game to the greatest level of beard possible |
Spoken like a true Dorf. |
I know how to great beard!  |
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almic85
Joined: May 25, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 06, 2016 - 16:55 |
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | | JellyBelly wrote: | | So, as with many of the other detractors who have questioned the feasibility, the fact that it was done before, successfully, kind of shoots down your argument. |
1/ A minor correction. It worked great before, in Ranked. But TV already works great in Ranked. It was never amazing at curbing the "DP all mens" in Box, so why would it discourage the Clawpomb now?
2/ I've also yet to hear how combos that stack on top of starting skills are to be handled. Blodge and Clawpomb seem to be the main complaints (or only complaints, and really it's just Clawpomb). So should amazons pay 3 or 4 times the price of block as a first skill compared to other teams? 1 blodge Amazon team could face a Dwarf team with 2 or 3 guards and a maybe MB thrown in for good measure? And I thought that was a bad match up before.
3/ What about Werewolves and Clawpomb? And should the Clawpomb tax be the same for players that can get it on normals as opposed to players that need one or more doubles to get it (or less in the case of the wolf)? CDs already pay more for Clawpomb than Chaos and Nurgle.
4/ Also since I'm not quite sure of it, but what is unfair with the current TV system exactly? We're all playing under the same system, and this system doesn't give special preference to one team over another. So I might actually be missing something vital here...
5/ The advantages teams and coaches get in Box are meta related. Who understand TV the best, who understands skill priority and build tailoring. Now, we already have a system in place to stop coaches from gaming the system to such an extent that they can perpetually pick on newer teams. So what exactly do people mean when they want more fair games? Because it really smells of pixel-hugging to me. |
Put simply it is pixel hugging.
Now again with the numbering.
1/ TV works as well in ranked as it does in box. The issue of fair match ups in the box is really an issue with the box matchmaking algorithm. Really if you wanted to discourage CPOMB or any other stack in box you just have to add in an extra part to the formula on top of win probability to suit your purpose, such as if a team has greater than three players with skills stack CPOMB then reduce their suitability score by half.
2/ This really just depends on how you apply the penalty for the skill stacks for TV. Assuming that you keep the TV calc as is plus a penalty of say another 20k for having a blodge combo a zon would get an additional 40k for blodge (20k for block plus 20k blodge penalty) while a human lineman would get and additional 60k (20k for block, 20k for dodge and 20k penalty for blodge). This would maintain the inherent racial strength of zons of starting with dodge, but still provide a disincentive to take blodge of say wrestle and dodge.
3/ above would work for wolves and CPOMB for teh claws portion anyway.
4/ This just depends who you ask. Yes we all play under the same rules for TV, but the rules for TV do not affect all races equally because of racial/positional skill access (now i sound like a socialist). Personally i don't think that making all BB races equal would make the game more fun, but others do. I still advocate reducing the efficiency of 2-3 legend teams.
5/ You are correct in terms of protection for new teams in the box. My assumption when talking about TV and the box is that the OP does not want to protect teams per se, but wants to make all games "more competitive" at equal TV so my 1500TV goblins can take on your 1500TV dwarfs with a 50/50 chance of winning. I think this logic is foolish as any good goblin game knows it is not about if you win but only about how many bribes you can use in a game. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Sep 06, 2016 - 18:35 |
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Fidius' discovery compels me to modify my earlier proposition:
Fumbbl's Forum Fixed Point (FFFP)
Any Fumbbl forum discussion with feature requests that lasts more than ten pages ends up talking about CPOMB.
Thank you, Fidius! |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Sep 06, 2016 - 23:49 |
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Iam still waiting for a bullet point list of the problems.
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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Sep 07, 2016 - 00:15 |
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Here you go Pain.
All of the problems with TV:
1. People whinging about it. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Sep 07, 2016 - 00:58 |
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| PainState wrote: | Iam still waiting for a bullet point list of the problems.
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So, you don't think min/maxing in the Box is a problem? I mean, you're entitled to your opinion and it's fair enough if you don't, but there seem to be quite a few people who do think it's an issue.
| Christer (from the recent GLN interview) wrote: | | [The one rule I would change in BB is] the Team Value formula. I understand that it's designed to be easy to calculate on pen and paper, but it's a very crude formula that's not very accurate. With a more complex TV formula, a truly perpetual league like FUMBBL would function better with fewer problems. For example, some power skill combinations (such as Claw, Piling On, Mighty Blow) could be balanced by a TV modifier rather than a change in the skills themselves. |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 01:23 |
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would is not will.
next |
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Lorebass
Joined: Jun 25, 2010
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Just remember guys, if this turns into a clawpomb OR minmax angst thread it gets shut down and moved to the proper channel. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Sep 07, 2016 - 01:36 |
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Jellybelly, so far you've used that statement to state:
1. Christer is going to bring back TS
2. Christer thinks minmax in box is an issue.
Have you actually read it?  He was asked a direct question and gave a direct answer, with a theoretical example that everyone could relate to. That's it - there's no implication of anything else, nor is there any reason to think Christer was doing anything other than answer a question. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Sep 07, 2016 - 02:27 |
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| ArrestedDevelopment wrote: | Jellybelly, so far you've used that statement to state:
1. Christer is going to bring back TS
2. Christer thinks minmax in box is an issue.
Have you actually read it? He was asked a direct question and gave a direct answer, with a theoretical example that everyone could relate to. That's it - there's no implication of anything else, nor is there any reason to think Christer was doing anything other than answer a question. |
Oh, I've read it
To address your first point, when did I say that Christer is going to bring back TS?
Regarding the other point: yes, he was answering a question, in a manner that seems to give a fairly clear insight into some of his opinions. He used the words:
.. it's a very crude formula that's not very accurate. With a more complex TV formula, a truly perpetual league like FUMBBL would function better with fewer problems.
It doesn't seem like very much of a stretch to say that implies he thinks TV is not very accurate and that, if it were improved, there would be fewer problems on the site (does it?).
Ok, I have one question for those that are questioning the assumptions that this thread was based on (that there are problems with the TV formula, which could be improved):
So, do you think that the current TV system is absolutely perfect, and couldn't possibly be improved in any way? |
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"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 02:29 |
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| Lorebass wrote: | | Just remember guys, if this turns into a clawpomb OR minmax angst thread it gets shut down and moved to the proper channel. |
What's the proper channel for 'min/max angst'? I didn't know that was a no-go area .. |
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"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 02:34 |
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Right here
| JellyBelly wrote: | I thought Christer mentioned in the latest GLN that he would like to bring back in something like TS to help solve the most glaring issues with TV? Besides, there is already a precedent for this on FUMBBL - TS in LRB4.
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You're implying, and seeking verification of things that simply put, aren't there. Poor Christer answers an interview question and people read in it what they want and then take it as gospel that there's going to be changes to TV.
"It's not that much of a stretch" - you're projecting here. Probably out of hope/optimism, but it's nonetheless an inaccurate representation of what was said. If anything further down in that interview you'll see it solidified that the current, and near-future focus of Christer is Leagues. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 03:24 |
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| PainState wrote: | | Iam still waiting for a bullet point list of the problems. |
The starting comment has been edited.
Seems that some norse Elf stole my Sneaky Git line. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Sep 07, 2016 - 04:03 |
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@AD: Ok. I didn't mean to imply that he was definitely going to bring back TS (and I don't think I did). I merely claimed that his response to the GLN question implied that he would like to. I apologize if my post gave the impression that I was trying to claim anything more than that.
The exact question that was asked was: 'If you could change one rule in Blood bowl, what would it be and why?'. So, it seems fair to say that, based on his answer, TV is #1 on his list of things that he would change about the game, if he could. |
_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" |
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