43 coaches online • Server time: 00:37
Forum Chat
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Fumbbl Cup XXIgoto Post Allow Treasury Induc...goto Post Java Webstart error ...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Poll
Do you think that timeout:
Should be always called without any warning
13%
 13%  [ 23 ]
Should be always called but never the first time (1 warning max)
17%
 17%  [ 30 ]
Should be called only if happen too often in a game
40%
 40%  [ 71 ]
Should be never called
11%
 11%  [ 20 ]
Each coach should agree before the match how to manage the timeout csll
8%
 8%  [ 15 ]
Pie!!!!
9%
 9%  [ 17 ]
Total Votes : 176


Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 18:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I too wish there was an automatic timeout. For me, making a super complicated situation where the opponent cant figure out a good play in 4 minutes (and therefore is forced into suboptimal play in order to beat the 4 minute timer) is the point of certain rosters (2500 TV elves come to mind).

Is that what the game is designed for? Probably not. Do most people play rosters that are complicated enough to cause that problem for their opponent? Almost certainly not.

But I think the game is better with that added restriction on the coaches.


And of course, if you have a real life situation, you shouldn't be penalised - but in those cases you would have the option of closing the client until you were able to continue play.
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 18:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Macavity wrote:
RDaneel, please note: The reason Matt plays (not being snarky just trying to be helpful) is to attempt to improve his CR.

I don't think he would disagree (because of the way it clearly comes up no matter the topic) that if you wish to argue with him you must accept this premise.

I suspect that you (like me) may not primarily play for CR so you are actually having an argument of irreconcilable values. Of course that is fine, but unlikely to produce any final concurrence.


Risk to go little bit off topic but i can answer both in one shot
Is totally clear for me that MattDakka play for the CR. and it is also fully understandable (as long as you keep your feet on the ground and do not feel like a godfather when you are top 1 mono-activating team Tiers1 and top Tiers2, although he plays them very well there is no doubt about that: The invention of 'elves all backwards' should be patented )

Honestly, I too would like to have a CR a little better than the crap I have today. I don't play for glory (only Wink) and I can say that when I lose I eat my liver. Playing Tiers3 teams is a grind but I told myself that it also allows you to get to know the game better and then it was the only way to participate in the Trophy using two-three "cool" teams that I like (Necros and Orcs especially). I think the reason (but this is my very personal opinion) why one should play on FUMBBL is to feel part of a community. I often hear people say : I play here because I have nowhere else to play- Absolutely understandable (especially in a niche game like this). But the community is also made up of tournaments, of leagues, there is Discord with his channels and chats, very funny and people in general are kind, the TvitchTV channel of PurpleChest. Limiting oneself to playing only in Box and only certain teamsneglecting all the rest... for me is a limitation.
But is totally legitimately so I'll stop teasing Dakka here and I'm fine with that.

But perhaps the real reason why I actually tease him is that I would have liked to see him participate in the Trophy, I admit that. The more top players that participate in the Trophy the better. For everyone. for the game, for the show, for the community. It's a good tournament.

Maybe I would have liked to meet him in Trophy this I admit. Because I don't think I'll activate teams beyond TV 1500 in the Box until I can get a killer MinMax like the one runs in the Competitive division so far... because playing equal TV against a team minmaxed at the extremes is starting off with a lame leg and I am not sure I will have ever time or will to minmax one team (maybe my Orcs which now are attending a minor.... let's see)
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 19:07 Reply with quote Back to top

I play to improve my CR and use the teams I find fun (or not frustrating) to play.
Elves are not super good, but good enough to be fun and competitive as well and the gameplay is creative (due to easy repositioning).
If I wanted to stick to the best teams I would play bash and hybrid only.
About not playing tier 3 teams: putting aside the CR-ego-boost chase, a serious reason for me not to play tier 3 is that I consider my time precious.
Unlike CR, lost time will not be gained back.
If I have a time window to play a game I don't want to waste it by playing a tier 3, finding Dwarfs or Norse in the Box (I play only in the Box, I can't pick Elves on GF with a tier 3 team) and playing a hard-to-win match. Last time I played as Goblins my opponent spent the rest of the game, clearly lost, by fouling my players and wasting even more time. I swore not to repeat that time waste again.
While on TT it can be fun because you play vs a close friend, it's not as fun vs online opponents.
Not because I don't like the fouls, but because to set up them he spent some extra time. Which is legal, I don't complain about the fouls, but I can't stand the time wastes.
Here's the game, so you can see I didn't invent a story:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3987435

RDaneel wrote:

The invention of 'elves all backwards' should be patented

Did you know? That tactic was born when I was playing my Slann to deal with hyperbasher teams, then used it with Elves, Skaven (and sometimes with Humans, Lizardmen and Amazons too).
Slann were not a top tier 1 team in CRP, in a Box full of Cpombers. Very Happy
With CRP, though, you could, with a bit of patience, develop some players on a tier 2 team and have decent chances to win or at least play a quite fun game (Slann, for example, started bad but with some development could perform fun plays).
With BB2020 it's harder to do that. You can't get a lucky stat boost or a chosen double skill at 6 SPPs anymore.
With CRP level up system, MVP nomination and no Re-Draft I would play more tier 2 teams.


RDaneel wrote:
I can say that when I lose I eat my liver. Playing Tiers3 teams is a grind but I told myself that it also allows you to get to know the game better

In my opinion, it's better to start with the tier 1 teams and later, if you want and feel confident enough, playing the tier 2 and 3, maybe with some games in League division. That way, if you lose the games, at least you don't lose CR points. Very Happy

Also, if you like tier 3 teams, you can find a lot of them in Secret League:
https://fumbbl.com/help:SecretLeague2020
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 20:17 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

Also, if you like tier 3 teams, you can find a lot of them in Secret League:
https://fumbbl.com/help:SecretLeague2020


as I mentioned the reason i play Tiers3 is mainly linked to Trophy (which again I think you should try once in your life: you can do as Elyod, playing only Elf teams if you don't like Tiers 3 , I would do the same but I play in pseudo decent way only DE and WE not any experience in HE and EU).
SL is another world ... at the moment I prefer to concentrate on the standard BB2020 official teams. Let's see in the future.
eranor



Joined: Sep 08, 2021

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 20:22 Reply with quote Back to top

I personally dislike the lack of time limits for setting up at kick-off, using stand-firm/side-step etc.
Some coaches take forever and if I should only play BB when I can reserve 2 hours to account for slow coaches, then I'd probably never play.
I accept when people have real life situations, but "I am going to get a coffee" isn't a good reason to keep me hanging. That might be the only way in which Cyanide is better than FUMBBL.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 20:43 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't like playing Elven teams at low TV, without enough rrs and skills.
It was already very boring to remake the 4 Elven teams for BB2020.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 20:46 Reply with quote Back to top

eranor wrote:
but "I am going to get a coffee" isn't a good reason to keep me hanging. That might be the only way in which Cyanide is better than FUMBBL.


There are coaches like that. They receive a phone call, they have to smoke a cigarette, they need to drink a coffee, then wife calls them, then it's late and they have to pick the kids up at school (they could even ask you to play fast after they took 30 minutes to play 5 turns). You re-schedule the game tomorrow, they log to the site, you are waiting for them, they ignore you and start another game.
You send them a PM and they react bad.

Real life emergencies happen, but some coaches (usually the same ones) can't play a game in 1 hour or so due to multiple interruptions.
It's a matter of respect, if I have something else to do I don't play a game with another person.
Storr



Joined: Mar 25, 2020

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 20:55 Reply with quote Back to top

At 3min55 you gotta start clicking the space where the timeout button will appear.



I usually don't do it though as I'm tabbed out doing other stuff when the opponents' turns are that long
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 21:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Some games ago I did that, but the time out button didn't work despite multiple clicks on it. I don't know why, I guess it was a bug.
Also, be wary, you could accidentally end your own turn by clicking on the "time out" button, if the "end turn" appeared because the opponent ended his turn on his own (rather than waiting for the time out to be enforced).
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 22:32 Reply with quote Back to top

RDaneel, what you're mostly missing to set the context here is that the rules of blood bowl did, for most of the last decade, contain a written time limit of 4 minutes, after which a turnover would occur. And this has become a standard in online play - the expectation of a turn limit, whether it be 4 minutes, 2 minutes (Cyanide's BB2 client), or 2 minutes with a time bank (Cyanide's BB3 client).

This hasn't been without pushback, primarily because table top tournament play maintained a system of an overall game time limit. Which means that this is a topic well broached, discussed and argued, with many positions now very much set in stone for some.

The majority of coaches you might play who instantly timeout at 4 min are playing to what they understand the rules to be. In this case not the rules as written in the rulebook, the rules as determined by online play communities - where it is often seen as not only impractical, but also immoral to take in excess of 4 minutes in turns where dice rolls, movements and even some calculations are all performed in the client.

I would consider it best practice to allow for such considerations when adjudicating reasons for timeouts taken in game, as - as in many situations when personal morals are applied - the "correct" path to take is not so clear cut, and widespread ethics may differ.

_________________
Image
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 23:16 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
RDaneel, what you're mostly missing to set the context here is that the rules of blood bowl did, for most of the last decade, contain a written time limit of 4 minutes, after which a turnover would occur.


Not in the current BB2020 Official Rules Book. What was implemented in the past is the past.


ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

The majority of coaches you might play who instantly timeout at 4 min are playing to what they understand the rules to be.


Is a wrong understandement or definition. (here I am a bit captious I admit). If they istantanly timeout at 4 mins without any warning as I mentioned is something that they can do because the admin of this site decided to put 4 mins. But is NOT a rule in the sense that is not defined in an official rules manual. You speak a lot of Cyanide... I don't know what is cyanide and I do not know if this has been developed by games-workshop (looking to Wikipedia seems to me a french game-house based in Nanterre nothing to do with G&W) but today G&W are the developers of official ruleset + NAF which as far as I know is a sort of official international association (like FIFA for Soccer, of FIDE for Chess) which define some ruleset for official tournaments. What they write is the law of Blood Bowl which is the rulebook + Errata and Designer COmmentary that's is what is the Blood Bowl ruleset for me

So again, The timeout is a custom that has nothing to do with the official rules.

These 'instant' time-out coaches can do this of course, because the tool allows it. But they cannot say 'it is the rule'. It is a possibility. The rule can NOT be waived. The possibility can. And so the choice to make timeouts without any warning is theirs alone, and they take full responsibility and thus expose themselves to the moral judgement of people

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

it is often seen as not only impractical, but also immoral to take in excess of 4 minutes in turns where dice rolls, movements and even some calculations are all performed in the client.


Many people consider the opposite to be unethical: i.e. calling a timeout without a prior warning. It is immoral to waste time inappropriately, and it is right to remind your opponent of his duties as a respectful player. There is a middle way in my opinion to follow when a feature such as the timeout is not regulated. What people consider moral or immoral is often the subject of debate. What the law says instead (and here the law is the manual) is something else

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

I would consider it best practice to allow for such considerations when adjudicating reasons for timeouts taken in game, as - as in many situations when personal morals are applied - the "correct" path to take is not so clear cut, and widespread ethics may differ.



It is absolutely right what you say: is a "personal moral". Is not a rule. since the timeout is a custom and NOT a rule, it bends to the 'moral' and 'ethical' choices of the player.
So people have their right to consider that whoever exceeds 4 minutes is playing in an 'immoral' manner (which I honestly dispute because it is not necessarily the case that if one takes too long to think one is an 'immoral' player, perhaps one is just 'slow' and inexperienced), just as I have every right to say that whoever calls a timeout at 4 minutes without first having given a "serious" warning is an uneducated player.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 23:36 Reply with quote Back to top

RDaneel wrote:
the admin of this site decided to put 4 mins.

Not wanting to nitpick in bad spirit or belittle you, just pointing out that Christer is more than an admin, he's site owner and developer (and FUMBBL Commissioner):

https://fumbbl.com/p/staff

I guess that even in BB2020 ruleset, like in former rulesets, the Commissioner can choose to adopt his own rules/change the official rules.
For example, Christer tweaked a bit the Season Re-Draft rule, as explained in his blog.
A Commissioner is free to put a time limit as well, even if the official rules don't say it.

About timing out without warning: admins told me that you don't need to warn your opponent (ask them if you want).
You can't time out (with or without warning) people experiencing issues.

I talk only about FUMBBL, I don't talk about TT, NAF and other formats.
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 23:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I used the word "admin" in the sense of "he is the Boss" so he can decide whatever time for timeout he likes.
4 minutes choiche - I guess - is according to considerations that are quite valid as in 90% of situations - for players of average experience - 4 minutes is more than enough.

And yes- Commissioner, the Boss, the Owner of the Site is free to put whatever time for timeout he wants. But I think (and I hope) he will not implement the "automatic" timeout because this means that every time you reach 4 minutes a timeout MUST be called, and this means that is an official bloodbowl rule which must be written in the BB2020 rulebook. If we want to follow the BB2020 rulebook naturally...
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: May 12, 2023 - 23:54 Reply with quote Back to top

If you wish to appeal to authority it behooves me to point out that you are playing Fantasy Football on this site, and the rules are whatever the developers of the client and the owner of the site tell you they are.

Granted, that's also going to provide a rather grey answer on this topic. My understanding was Christer wanted to move to no time limit when the rules change became apparent, but I cannot pretend to know his current stance. Therefore the natural inclination would be to adopt the "play to the client".

My own personal status on this is that I would personally prefer that, in an online setting, everyone keep below 4min vs me (actually below 2min in a perfect world), but for a wide variety of reasons this isn't possible, nor particularly reasonable. I generally don't timeout outside of a tournament (and some might point out, certainly haven't done so in almost 3 years).
The enforcement of a complete lack of a turn time limit would almost definitively end any level of participation I and many others would have in this game in an online format - and that's probably why FUMBBL has this impasse.

The point I was trying to make is not that each side has a right to view the other as somewhat villainous, but that it is equally illogical to apply any form of moral judgement (or superiority) over a situation that is contentious purely because there are many avenues as to how one reaches that choice.

_________________
Image
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 13, 2023 - 00:11 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

The enforcement of a complete lack of a turn time limit would almost definitively end any level of participation I and many others would have in this game in an online format - and that's probably why FUMBBL has this impasse.
.


Removing any limit to the time is an extreme decision, i agree with you and is a game changer, This means that match can (and need in case is too longer) be stopped and then restarted the day after and so on... they can take days ... To be honest I do not think will be practical.

But I do not think this is something which is going to be implemented, I don't remember to have read an announcement by Christer about this: did I miss something?
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic