| Poll |
| Do you think that timeout: |
| Should be always called without any warning |
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13% |
[ 24 ] |
| Should be always called but never the first time (1 warning max) |
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17% |
[ 31 ] |
| Should be called only if happen too often in a game |
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40% |
[ 72 ] |
| Should be never called |
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11% |
[ 20 ] |
| Each coach should agree before the match how to manage the timeout csll |
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8% |
[ 15 ] |
| Pie!!!! |
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10% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 180 |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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 Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 00:31 |
 
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I have never used the button.
Years ago, the java game client often failed to recognize that a player had disconnected from the game, and the 4 minute timer continued to tick away as the player attempted to re-connect to the game. Commonly, no indication of this disconnection was given to the other coach, so 'Mr. Bob joins the game' was often the first indication we had that our opponent had been disconnected, and had just rejoined.
I'm not sure this still happens. I feel like it might, but my internet is far better now than it was back then.
Timing someone out back then was ignorant. Ignorant to the fact that invisible disconnects happened, or willfully ignorant, and simply using the Time Out button to increase one's own chances of winning.
FUMBBL is a community of mostly nice people. It would have to be, for Big C and the admin to have put up with us all for so long. It is also a fairly large community, with over 1000 active members.
That is a large enough community to contain some narcissists, some with psychopathic tendencies, and some ultra-competitive personalities. Also a large chuck of people who sometimes have momentary lapses in maturity.
The first two will justify anything they do with various levels of intellect, and you can debate with them if you choose. They will behave in their own best interests, and nothing can really be done about it. I think it is the right thing to do to 'call them out for being jerks' in a thread like this, every so often, just to let the rest of the community know that most of us are not like this.
The ultra-competitive types can still be good people, and a good person has no reason not to give you a friendly warning about their use of the Time Out button ahead of time, either at the start of the game, or after your first infraction. It's a silly game, so I don't really understand the ultra competitive mindset in this venue, but the warning is no big deal for a decent chap to give out, and hence most of us have that as an expectation in this community.
Momentary lapses in maturity? Lots of people are very new, or very young, or feeling very hard done by, so they might be more prone to smash that button if it means locking in a win vs. a Super Star or Legend opponent. Whatever. I can understand, I guess.
Spence is right when he says we should ALL cut newer players some slack. We want to grow as a community. Growth is good. Being good people is also good for growth. No one should time out noobs.
But most experienced coaches take less than 2 minutes per turn, most turns. FUMBBL says set aside 90 minutes, and most games are about an hour.
If we're lucky, once or twice per game we get presented with some very interesting puzzles to try and solve. If a coach is taking 5 minutes at one of these puzzles, it's because he wants to, because he's enjoying this game we have agreed to play together. It's arguably one of the best parts of the whole game.. enjoying a tricky puzzle. When another coach is enjoying a puzzle, I try not to think of myself. I try to let him enjoy himself. Heck, I tell him not to rush, so that he will enjoy that turn.
This is not too much for a good group of people to expect of each other, to be gracious enough to let your opponent enjoy a few complex turns each game, going over 4 minutes. Let him enjoy the puzzle Nuffle has presented him, without accusing him of being selfish. If you can't do that, I invite you to look up a few definitions for personality disorders, and give yourself a quick evaluation.
It's good to bring this up now again again. Understand that the responses are NOT a well balanced representation of the community. The desire to self-justify behavior brings out the forum warriors. It's mostly a great group of friendly people.
A warning that you intend to use the Time-Out button is not too much to ask, obviously. |
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spinball
Joined: Jul 01, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 00:34 |
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I personally don't almost ever use my full time, unless something requires my attention in the real world. I'd rather had 2 minute turns with like a 15 minute buffer that can be used as needed. Once your 15 minute buffer is gone and you go over your 2 minute turn you get auto timed out. This by math should make most if not all games over in about an hour. But again, I have played quite a few games on fumbbl. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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 Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 00:42 |
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| The_Murker wrote: | I have never used the button.
…..
……
….’
A warning that you intend to use the Time-Out button is not too much to ask, obviously. |
really nice post...I agree with almost everything you wrote
+1 |
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Waiting4Mish
Joined: Jun 13, 2022
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 01:14 |
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If you look at what people think about fumbbl on other sites then new coaches often get turned off it because of issues like this or the one the other day about people spitefully fouling because they're bad sports on the last turn. It's not easy being a new or inexperienced player on this site. People don't factor that in enough. It's a better site if you have more people on it enjoying themselves. Not more hollow victories.
The timeout clearly favours people who know certain teams inside out and don't experiment. The grinders. Half of the fun of the blackbox tournament for example is a bunch of people playing with teams that are outside of their comfort zone doing unexpected things. If everyone timed out automatically then no one except the best coaches would play with any complex teams (and only those coaches who weren't fixated on ratings and were happy to take a few losses to learn) which means the quality of games would drop. People learn in competitive or blackbox which is fine.
I remember playing MattDakka, he told me he invented some move I'd seen 20+ years earlier in one of about 4 games I'd played as a teenager in a room above a Warhammer shop when I didn't even have proper models and played as Chaos because I had a bunch of beastmen. I don't think the other teenager who employed it had invented it either somehow as it was essentially something common in sports and they told me "I saw another bloke do this once". MD's tactic successfully resulted in a 2-0 win instead of a 4-0 or 5-0 one. And it took ages for him to do each turn. If you were a spectator for that game then I hope they paid you to watch. Incidentally the two times I've played him were with teams I have terrible records with after I sent other match requests at the time when I had the lowest rating. Coincidental of course lol. The way he misrepresented that last Goblin game is utterly hilarious btw. "spent the rest of the game"=turn 16 foul. Also MD, "It's up to the opponent to be pissed off or don't. The game allows T16 fouls, blame the rules, not the coaches."
You can up your chances of winning by timing out an opponent. People keep trying to justify making decisions that benefit themselves. The people who blanket timeout no matter what do it simply because they gain something. All this bs after of, I do x because of y is a joke. You timeout because it helps you win.
No one is arguing that you can't do something that is physically possible. But you clearly shouldn't when playing against new or inexperienced players especially when the result is not in doubt and they are only trying to figure stuff out. The question is not about individual choosing to do what is in their best interest as much as it is what is best for the site at large. Even then if your best interest is to up your CR then keeping weaker opponents around is better for you. |
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Klunker
Joined: Apr 02, 2021
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 07:48 |
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Perfect summary by Murker.
Exactly my feelings, too.
I’m a slow player myself. I enjoy the tactical complexity of this game. Each turn gives you a limited amount of activations to achieve your objectives. Methodical sequencing as well as fallback plans are crucial. And I often need to alter my plan, depending on whether the previous block resulted in a pow or a push.
(And when I‘m not sober, I take even longer.) |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 09:25 |
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Excellent post by Murker. I agree 100% with it. |
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Storr
Joined: Mar 25, 2020
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 10:19 |
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Honestly, who is the jerk here? Maybe it's the one who never uses the timeout button and therefore condemns everyone who has different ideas of how the game should be played? In any case, I find it bewildering how many peope, both on Fumbbl and on TT, think they should have an advantage against their opponent (more time) in a competitive game. And a game in the Competitive Division is a competitive game, no?
If you don't use the timeout button that's fine, but there's no reason to expect the same from others. |
Last edited by Storr on %b %13, %2023 - %10:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Seventyone
Joined: Dec 02, 2010
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 10:20 |
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Spence
Joined: Dec 05, 2012
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 12:12 |
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| Waiting4Mish wrote: |
You can up your chances of winning by timing out an opponent. People keep trying to justify making decisions that benefit themselves. |
You can up your chances of winning by exceeding the time limit and taking more time than your opponent. People keep trying to justify making decisions that benefit themselves.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
| The_Murker wrote: |
This is not too much for a good group of people to expect of each other, to be gracious enough to let your opponent enjoy a few complex turns each game, going over 4 minutes. Let him enjoy the puzzle Nuffle has presented him, without accusing him of being selfish. |
It's not a single player puzzle game. Nuffle hasn't presented this puzzle - your opponent has. When you decide unilaterally that you're allowed extra time to solve it you're showing no respect for the effort or skill they put in to set it.
On conversion turns as long as you have something in range (or that can be chained into range) there's always a way through - it's just about finding the optimal line among the myriad variations. The more time you have to solve the problem the better your solution will be, the greater your TD chance and match equity.
Now perhaps you're nodding along thinking that sounds great, we should have as much time as we need to solve the turn. But, setting the puzzle is more complex than solving it, so if you want 6 mins to solve it, I assume you're fine with them taking 10 mins to make the defence as airtight as possible.
Of course, you also have a turn before this final defence turn. You want to set up the best possible conversion turn so seek to anticipate and shut down the defensive resources. Again, this is more complex than the defensive turn itself, so 15 mins seems fair. Etc.
Or we can just play to a time bank/X mins per turn limit.
Tournament play should be competitive if you want those tournament victories to mean anything. When you exceed the allotted time limit you're taking an off-pitch competitive edge.
Taking extra time is a massive competitive advantage. In less competitive games (which are the vast majority of games played) this edge isn't a huge deal. I doubt many people are mashing timeout in Ranked. Very few are in box - even in Trophy games.
Generally, the stronger player is fine with giving the weaker player time odds if he wants them. But that's what happening - we're giving time odds to offset the coaching skill difference. The same as we might give a beginner piece odds when teaching them to play TT. Whether that's something you want is up to you. |
Last edited by Spence on %b %13, %2023 - %17:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 12:35 |
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Also, let's imagine that games have no time limit at all. Many games would not be completed or they could take hours or days and you could not force the opponent to finish them.
So, there must be a time limit, for practical reasons.
We can debate about how it can be (either fixed time each turn or flexible, with time bank) and about how many minutes, but we can't say that there should be no time limit or that the time limit is up to the opponent. Some opponents could not time out, others could do it.
It's better if the competition is under the same conditions for everyone. With the same time limit applied to everyone we remove a "variable" from the games. Otherwise, there could be a component of "luck" in finding a coach who doesn't time out. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 13:21 |
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| Quote: | This is intended to be a fun tournament. Ideally, don't be timing people out.
If you must timeout, issue a warning at least 15 seconds before pressing the button.
Do this before each timeout. |
If the commish wants to impose arbitrary rules, they can. 
If you're gonna call it the "Competitive" division, ya gotta expect people to play in a "competitive" manner. That is going to mean different things to different people.
It is good to give a warning. But you don't have to until Christer tells you that you have to.
it would be cool to have the option to superimpose the clock on the pitch.
It would be cool to have the option to have a warning buzzer at 3:45.
I am sure that many things have been considered. But, we are where we are.
The warning is that it is the Competitive division. The issue is that we're using the Competitive division for multiple things. Competitive and less competitive games.
Some games are not "competitive" at all. Sometimes people just want to play.
You could split it and say that Black Box is hardcore, Gamefinder less so.
It is not realistic to expect everyone to just "be nice" unless enforced rules require them to be. |
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Joost
Joined: Mar 17, 2014
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 14:01 |
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| Storr wrote: | Honestly, who is the jerk here? Maybe it's the one who never uses the timeout button and therefore condemns everyone who has different ideas of how the game should be played? In any case, I find it bewildering how many peope, both on Fumbbl and on TT, think they should have an advantage against their opponent (more time) in a competitive game. And a game in the Competitive Division is a competitive game, no?
If you don't use the timeout button that's fine, but there's no reason to expect the same from others. |
I think the consensus is that timing out isn’t bad, but that a warning if you’re going to is the right thing to do. Even if it is at the beginning of the game stating “I always time out†|
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 14:10 |
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Well, to be safe, always expect to be timed out by any opponent, that way there is no need for the opponent to warn you at the beginning or during the game. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 14:13 |
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What you say is true, but the game has undergone many evolutions since 2005. As well as the timeout, I read on here that someone mentioned this "cyanide" where there was an automatic timeout at two minutes per turn. Now is 4. But you are right: the complain to who is playing too fast or too slow are old like the game. Anyway BB compared to 15-20 years ago has changed a lot (and maybe the coach on this site too) so it makes sense sometimes to revitalise some old topics
P.S) I have found a very old Handbook and DeathZone from 1994 and I didn't find anything written anywhere about timeouts. But maybe I haven't read the whole thing because there's no analytical index (and the Blood Bowl Handbooks sometimes contain a lot of information that's irrelevant to the game, but fun for the story (like the chapter "The Old World" in the Handbook.... ) |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 13, 2023 - 14:19 |
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The 4 minute time limit was introduced in BB 3rd edition, 1994 (<= edit). |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %13, %2023 - %15:%May; edited 3 times in total |
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