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2014-11-16 19:14:19
14 votes, rating 3.6
14 votes, rating 3.6
If CRP was mine to change
There's a LOT of traffic going on right now r.e. CRP changes. This got me thinking, what would I really change about the current ruleset, given that my stance on CRP over LRB4 is quite well known?
It's not easy to be objective about this, and I would think there's less than a handful of coaches that could be utterly objective if given the task of creating CRP2, given that we all have a preferred playstyle.
I'm not expecting anyone to agree, and my thought process is constantly evolving following suggestions from other coaches (Chainsaw has changed my thought process today following a forum post) and I think that's a good thing, to be so blinkered to not consider any alternatives is a bit....well sad.
Big guys IMMUNE to claw - Fluff wise this makes so much sense to me.....thicker hide/skin/scales etc.
+AV = -1 on claw roll (so +1AV = claw breaks on 9 not 8) - a great way to make +AV a worthwhile skill choice and fits fluff wise
No more decay - God I hate this rule, I feel Khemri suffered enough in the transition to CRP, and this was an extra kick in their bandaged nuts
Unnerf DP - Make DP +2 again.....this in itself makes PO more risky, and makes laying down to avoid damage more risky too.
double skill rolls = remove BIG GUY negatrait - this could reflect extra training fluff wise, and although it would mean a few monster big guys out there it would be rare, and who doesn't want to see a few Morg's out there?
Increase inducement limit/remove inducements - this is just a thought from me, I know there could be all kinds of ramifications with this so it's just a thought given my obvious team building preference.
I agree with Chainsaw insofar that nerfing PO in its current form would be crazy, it would open the door for elf teams to run all over bash teams.
Still, its a fun time to be involved in BB. Is it likely to change? Who knows? Who changes it? Dunno. Are they likely to get shot at from all angles? YEP :)
*Sneaky git - +1 to fouls even in a TZ and +2 when combined with DP - I think this would make this skill a far more worthwhile choice
It's not easy to be objective about this, and I would think there's less than a handful of coaches that could be utterly objective if given the task of creating CRP2, given that we all have a preferred playstyle.
I'm not expecting anyone to agree, and my thought process is constantly evolving following suggestions from other coaches (Chainsaw has changed my thought process today following a forum post) and I think that's a good thing, to be so blinkered to not consider any alternatives is a bit....well sad.
Big guys IMMUNE to claw - Fluff wise this makes so much sense to me.....thicker hide/skin/scales etc.
+AV = -1 on claw roll (so +1AV = claw breaks on 9 not 8) - a great way to make +AV a worthwhile skill choice and fits fluff wise
No more decay - God I hate this rule, I feel Khemri suffered enough in the transition to CRP, and this was an extra kick in their bandaged nuts
Unnerf DP - Make DP +2 again.....this in itself makes PO more risky, and makes laying down to avoid damage more risky too.
double skill rolls = remove BIG GUY negatrait - this could reflect extra training fluff wise, and although it would mean a few monster big guys out there it would be rare, and who doesn't want to see a few Morg's out there?
Increase inducement limit/remove inducements - this is just a thought from me, I know there could be all kinds of ramifications with this so it's just a thought given my obvious team building preference.
I agree with Chainsaw insofar that nerfing PO in its current form would be crazy, it would open the door for elf teams to run all over bash teams.
Still, its a fun time to be involved in BB. Is it likely to change? Who knows? Who changes it? Dunno. Are they likely to get shot at from all angles? YEP :)
*Sneaky git - +1 to fouls even in a TZ and +2 when combined with DP - I think this would make this skill a far more worthwhile choice
Comments
Posted by Garion on 2014-11-16 19:23:34
Nega trait removal should be 11, or 12, on doubles is too often. You need IGMEOY back if Dp=+2.
Posted by member1234 on 2014-11-16 19:31:10
If we are going pie in the sky. Were it me, and we were looking to focus more on an online aspect than the table top and time limitations, I'd break it down from the ground up. Move (back?, 2nd ed was before my timem started '96) to a D8, 10, 12, 20 or 100 system, for various aspects depending on how much variability you want. With stats, blockdice, the works.
So your ST32 (rolled inital stat) Orc rolls a ST increase, then rolls 5+d8 or whatever. Or you block with +8 ST (D100 system) and roll 8 D20 block dice (faces proportion TBD) needing a balance of PoWs.
Get more RPG, stat randomness etc. back into it. But make the mechanics less rrandom (not a 1/6 base, 1/20 or the like) so it becomes more tactical.
Keep it as blood bowl. Same stats, same mechanics, same/similar skills etc. (Mouseovers can do the %s calcs) but add more variety/building whist tightening the tactical gameplay.
Use the online fucntion to run the hundreds of interations and tweak the ruleset from there.
I had notes on such a houserule (Replacing d6 Block dice with D8, amending stats to a a 20 point system, levels of skills etc.) but never followed it through, and who would want to play it anyway if unoffical.
I did say pie in the sky. ;)
*I hate typos, sorry if I missed any!
So your ST32 (rolled inital stat) Orc rolls a ST increase, then rolls 5+d8 or whatever. Or you block with +8 ST (D100 system) and roll 8 D20 block dice (faces proportion TBD) needing a balance of PoWs.
Get more RPG, stat randomness etc. back into it. But make the mechanics less rrandom (not a 1/6 base, 1/20 or the like) so it becomes more tactical.
Keep it as blood bowl. Same stats, same mechanics, same/similar skills etc. (Mouseovers can do the %s calcs) but add more variety/building whist tightening the tactical gameplay.
Use the online fucntion to run the hundreds of interations and tweak the ruleset from there.
I had notes on such a houserule (Replacing d6 Block dice with D8, amending stats to a a 20 point system, levels of skills etc.) but never followed it through, and who would want to play it anyway if unoffical.
I did say pie in the sky. ;)
*I hate typos, sorry if I missed any!
Posted by Chainsaw on 2014-11-16 19:44:00
I like DP as is although I thought IGMEOY was more fun.
Still +2 seems a little too lethal on gang fouls for my liking.
I've not thought about negatrait removal for big guys.
Still +2 seems a little too lethal on gang fouls for my liking.
I've not thought about negatrait removal for big guys.
Posted by Calcium on 2014-11-16 19:50:22
Yeah, forgot about IGMEOY, thought fluff wise it fitted far better than the random double method.....
Posted by Calcium on 2014-11-16 19:54:48
I also like the negatrait removal on an 11/12 - although I must stress this is for BIG GUYS ONLY. Vamps without nega traits? *shudder
Posted by the_cursed_one on 2014-11-16 20:06:01
Making nega-trait removal an 11 does sound like a good idea to me, gives them a use for that roll rather than 12
Posted by Wizfall on 2014-11-16 20:11:16
1 Big guys IMMUNE to claw YES
2 +AV = -1 on claw roll YES
3 No more decay NO
4 Unnerf DP NO
5 double skill rolls = remove BIG GUY negatrait ON 11/12
6 Increase inducement limit/remove inducements ?
2 +AV = -1 on claw roll YES
3 No more decay NO
4 Unnerf DP NO
5 double skill rolls = remove BIG GUY negatrait ON 11/12
6 Increase inducement limit/remove inducements ?
Posted by Garion on 2014-11-16 20:23:09
I think the best thing to do with Dp would be make Dp +1 and SG +1 and bring back IGMEOY. Rather than the straight +2. Ok should be nerfed to no modifiers used on this roll. As it is too strong. It makes too many games one sided very early on.
Posted by Garion on 2014-11-16 20:32:33
Ok is meant to read Po :)
Posted by Calcium on 2014-11-16 20:33:10
I quite like that Garion, it would make combining DP and SG more worthwhile, cause lets face it, outside of stunty SG is more or less worthless.
Posted by Endzone on 2014-11-16 21:10:46
If we are going true blue sky, I'd like to see a reworking of many of the race rosters to make most races similarly good throughout the TV ranges. I'd allow a few races like perhaps Halfling, Goblin and Ogre to be intentionally weaker to offer that challenge to coaches who wanted it, but would look to try to overcome the advantage of say Amazons, Dwarves, Undead, Lizards and Orcs at early TV level and the overwhelmingly superior deadliness of the various chaos races at high TV. This would not be straight forward, as it would require some balancing of balling, killing and survivability across the board. I'd also consider having specific additional rules in the official CRP2 for perpetual and perpetual random match up leagues.
Posted by keggiemckill on 2014-11-16 21:39:46
Maybe Claw should be plus one to the armour like it used to be. I hate suggesting many changes to the game as it is useless to debate it.
Posted by keggiemckill on 2014-11-16 21:50:58
Actually one thing I would like to change is making any Caught Fouls on Prime numbers instead of Doubles. 1, 3, 5, 7, 11
I could care less honestly. :)
I could care less honestly. :)
Posted by pythrr on 2014-11-17 00:11:24
random skills were teh cool
much more funs
much more funs
Posted by harvestmouse on 2014-11-17 01:06:18
I think it's easier to say what they should have added to LRB 4, rather than what needs to be brought back from that ruleset.
1. Inducements over handicaps (massive improvement).
2. Journey Men, again no brainer awesome edition.
3. I thought at first taking aging away was a great idea. After 143 threads about 'finally he's a legend' (after 43 games) I want to age their arses big time. Removing aging for the first 2 skills and with the new niggle would have been sufficient.
4. It's disappointing how the new niggle and decay are viewed. I think they're quite clever.
5. I like the new rosters, I think they did a great job. Even with Pact (the problem here is that old nutshell TV). However the rosters they removed were anything of them broken. Why not give 'alternatives'. Especially with the old Nurgle roster, there was no problem with that at all.
6. TR was a bit problematic. However I loathe what TV has done to my game. An adaption rather than nuke job they did.
7. The new skill, they're awesome. Grab, Juggers, Wrestle, fend brilliant job on these.
8. Bribes instead of get the ref on the kick off chart is a big improvement. The new blitz....less so.
9. Some sort of toning of fouling was needed. However not the castration job they did. Again tweaking people tweaking!!!
10. Blood lust. Yeah I like what they did to this. It's a much nicer balance than the old OFAB. It gives a good tactical vamp player some room to show his skillz.
11. I guess Loner. It gives more tactical room. Oh and animosity; I love this trait. It could have been a bit better, but it should never have gone away. A great return!
Probably more, but not much.
1. Inducements over handicaps (massive improvement).
2. Journey Men, again no brainer awesome edition.
3. I thought at first taking aging away was a great idea. After 143 threads about 'finally he's a legend' (after 43 games) I want to age their arses big time. Removing aging for the first 2 skills and with the new niggle would have been sufficient.
4. It's disappointing how the new niggle and decay are viewed. I think they're quite clever.
5. I like the new rosters, I think they did a great job. Even with Pact (the problem here is that old nutshell TV). However the rosters they removed were anything of them broken. Why not give 'alternatives'. Especially with the old Nurgle roster, there was no problem with that at all.
6. TR was a bit problematic. However I loathe what TV has done to my game. An adaption rather than nuke job they did.
7. The new skill, they're awesome. Grab, Juggers, Wrestle, fend brilliant job on these.
8. Bribes instead of get the ref on the kick off chart is a big improvement. The new blitz....less so.
9. Some sort of toning of fouling was needed. However not the castration job they did. Again tweaking people tweaking!!!
10. Blood lust. Yeah I like what they did to this. It's a much nicer balance than the old OFAB. It gives a good tactical vamp player some room to show his skillz.
11. I guess Loner. It gives more tactical room. Oh and animosity; I love this trait. It could have been a bit better, but it should never have gone away. A great return!
Probably more, but not much.
Posted by keggiemckill on 2014-11-17 02:47:16
Good post HM
Posted by harvestmouse on 2014-11-17 06:28:04
Another post.
It's not categorical fixing PO as I suggested would allow Elf teams to run all over the bash teams. In fact, it could be the opposite.
I don't think it's the Elf teams that suffer that much from PO as these sort of teams limit the amount of blocks they take. So if you could take less PO (i.e. the big guy only) then these players would take more balanced skill pack. You are more likely to see more tackle as an example on these teams. A skill which would combat Elven teams more effectively.
Anyway rereading your post and keeping off LRB 4 (ish) if I was put in charge of BB, what would I change?
Well a lot. However my priorities would be:
* Almost instant
# Long term
* 1. Contact the NAF, see what they expect and need (ruleset is very good for them). I would also inquire what the big problem with IGEMOY is. How could it be implemented so that it's not a pain in the arse on the table. Then hopefully re-introduce it.
* 2. More teams and races. Especially using the LRB 5+ format of introducing 'teams' like Pact and Underworld, which is a move away from a straight race. Look to introduce new teams fairly regularly.
# 3. Long term. Fixing TV, so that roster management has less of an impact on results and to make management more rounded.
* 4. I would fix PO, probably with my suggestion. I think I'd also go some way to changing the apoth to how it used to be.
# 5. In turn, I'd probably need to bump attrition a little. Aging or a bump to fouling (maybe sneaky git and or dp). Or longer injuries.
* 5. Leader go bye bye (or at least totally revamped). It's not a skill, it's a money saver. You might as well put bonus stars on the pitch, which if a player runs over, his teams gets to shave 1 TV off the team for no real reason....
# 6. 8 on skill table. It's the same odds as rolling a double, however adds some interest to skill rolls with a different range of choices (something like traits). In some form I'd like to see traits return (possibly as a doubled up skill; example skill 1 new stand firm; skill 2 roll double 8 old stand firm).
# 7. Reserve bench in some sort of form. Probably longer injuries, that removes players from the roster for a period.
* 8. Ogres. Give an almost instant fix to the roster. Then look long term at a permanent fix.
* 9. Re-introduce some of the old rosters that are missed. Give Khemri the Mummy option I guess. Old Nurgle. DE get a thrower instead of a runner option (can't see that being broken). Old Norse too.
* 9. Close FUMBBL down. If you want my goodness, pay for it! Say bye bye you fantasy gaming hitch hikers!
It's not categorical fixing PO as I suggested would allow Elf teams to run all over the bash teams. In fact, it could be the opposite.
I don't think it's the Elf teams that suffer that much from PO as these sort of teams limit the amount of blocks they take. So if you could take less PO (i.e. the big guy only) then these players would take more balanced skill pack. You are more likely to see more tackle as an example on these teams. A skill which would combat Elven teams more effectively.
Anyway rereading your post and keeping off LRB 4 (ish) if I was put in charge of BB, what would I change?
Well a lot. However my priorities would be:
* Almost instant
# Long term
* 1. Contact the NAF, see what they expect and need (ruleset is very good for them). I would also inquire what the big problem with IGEMOY is. How could it be implemented so that it's not a pain in the arse on the table. Then hopefully re-introduce it.
* 2. More teams and races. Especially using the LRB 5+ format of introducing 'teams' like Pact and Underworld, which is a move away from a straight race. Look to introduce new teams fairly regularly.
# 3. Long term. Fixing TV, so that roster management has less of an impact on results and to make management more rounded.
* 4. I would fix PO, probably with my suggestion. I think I'd also go some way to changing the apoth to how it used to be.
# 5. In turn, I'd probably need to bump attrition a little. Aging or a bump to fouling (maybe sneaky git and or dp). Or longer injuries.
* 5. Leader go bye bye (or at least totally revamped). It's not a skill, it's a money saver. You might as well put bonus stars on the pitch, which if a player runs over, his teams gets to shave 1 TV off the team for no real reason....
# 6. 8 on skill table. It's the same odds as rolling a double, however adds some interest to skill rolls with a different range of choices (something like traits). In some form I'd like to see traits return (possibly as a doubled up skill; example skill 1 new stand firm; skill 2 roll double 8 old stand firm).
# 7. Reserve bench in some sort of form. Probably longer injuries, that removes players from the roster for a period.
* 8. Ogres. Give an almost instant fix to the roster. Then look long term at a permanent fix.
* 9. Re-introduce some of the old rosters that are missed. Give Khemri the Mummy option I guess. Old Nurgle. DE get a thrower instead of a runner option (can't see that being broken). Old Norse too.
* 9. Close FUMBBL down. If you want my goodness, pay for it! Say bye bye you fantasy gaming hitch hikers!
Posted by Relezite on 2014-11-17 07:37:34
I like these ideas. Helping big guys is a plus. I want some ways for helping the non-claw av9 teams, like how easily KO'ing suarii makes CRP tough for lizardmen. Removing the negatrait should definately be a 40-50k skillslot because at 30k it will become essential, I wouldn't keep a big guy past 2 skills that didnt roll out of it.
I agree with the elf analysis later in the comments. Elves stand a better chance against lopsided killstack teams for the immediate victory, but not for long term damage. DP+2 would make DP more viable on 60-70k linemen again though so elves would have that. But yeah, a chaos team balanced with guard, DTers, and other disruption has a much better chance against elves than a killstack team.
I think inducements could use a touch up, but obviously they are so much better than handicaps in LBR4. Maybe Wizard should be 200k. Maybe bribes should be 200k for 3? I don't have a solid handle on the power level of these.
DP+2 on 40k units is a little dangerous. The undead teams would jump to the highest killing power as the claw nerf only benefits them and their 60k DP only units would be crazy valuable in tandum with PO. Certain skills like PO and DP and some AG skill I'm not thinking of (maybe something affecting OTTs) should have scaling instance cost, where the first is 20k, then 30k, then 40 and so on to prevent stacking abuse.
Anyways, nice post.
I agree with the elf analysis later in the comments. Elves stand a better chance against lopsided killstack teams for the immediate victory, but not for long term damage. DP+2 would make DP more viable on 60-70k linemen again though so elves would have that. But yeah, a chaos team balanced with guard, DTers, and other disruption has a much better chance against elves than a killstack team.
I think inducements could use a touch up, but obviously they are so much better than handicaps in LBR4. Maybe Wizard should be 200k. Maybe bribes should be 200k for 3? I don't have a solid handle on the power level of these.
DP+2 on 40k units is a little dangerous. The undead teams would jump to the highest killing power as the claw nerf only benefits them and their 60k DP only units would be crazy valuable in tandum with PO. Certain skills like PO and DP and some AG skill I'm not thinking of (maybe something affecting OTTs) should have scaling instance cost, where the first is 20k, then 30k, then 40 and so on to prevent stacking abuse.
Anyways, nice post.
Posted by the_Sage on 2014-11-17 13:38:41
Keggie you git, you can't roll 1 on 2d6.
Posted by liquidorange on 2014-11-17 13:46:44
The math teacher in me can't help it...
One is not a prime number, keggie.
<exhales>
One is not a prime number, keggie.
<exhales>
Posted by TamperMagnitude on 2014-11-17 15:28:53
I'd love to change the Injury table to make it less debilitating in the long run. Something like
1-4 Badly Hurt
51 - MNG
52 - MNG
53 - Niggle
54 - Niggle
55 - -Ma
56 - -Av
57 - -Ag
58 - -St
6 - Dead
Obviously it would need playtesting to see what the long term effect would be. I'd also shift POn to Big Guys only in some way and somehow boost the passing game as it sorely needs some love.
1-4 Badly Hurt
51 - MNG
52 - MNG
53 - Niggle
54 - Niggle
55 - -Ma
56 - -Av
57 - -Ag
58 - -St
6 - Dead
Obviously it would need playtesting to see what the long term effect would be. I'd also shift POn to Big Guys only in some way and somehow boost the passing game as it sorely needs some love.
Posted by Calcium on 2014-11-17 16:35:56
Theres very little complaint over the injury table, I think it's one area that doesn't need changing.....
Posted by PurpleChest on 2014-11-17 18:31:47
Id agree with points 1-3, the rest i am against. Its 6 or 3 surely. Or do you expect to sneak in +3 fouls?
Posted by pythrr on 2014-11-18 03:50:25
HM gets this pretty much on the money, but add REMOVE PO
except for [9] -- silly mouse.
I would crowdfund thiis thing
except for [9] -- silly mouse.
I would crowdfund thiis thing
Posted by Catalyst32 on 2014-11-18 05:07:50
KeggieMcKill... Your suggestion of getting caught on fouls would DOUBLE the number of times someone gets caught fouling over the present (CRP) rule.
To get caught as is (on doubles)
1-1, 2-2, 3-3, 4-4, 5-5, 6-6...
To get caught in prime #s as you suggest (1, 3, 5, 7, 11)
1-2, 2-1, 1-4, 4-1, 2-3, 3-2, 1-6, 6-1, 2-5, 5-2, 3-4, 4-3, 5-6, 6-5...
You stand as much chance to roll a 7 as you do to roll a double.
Maybe this is your goal idk.
I don't think it should be that easy to spot the Foul.
Fouling is the only attrition tactic available to all teams.
To get caught as is (on doubles)
1-1, 2-2, 3-3, 4-4, 5-5, 6-6...
To get caught in prime #s as you suggest (1, 3, 5, 7, 11)
1-2, 2-1, 1-4, 4-1, 2-3, 3-2, 1-6, 6-1, 2-5, 5-2, 3-4, 4-3, 5-6, 6-5...
You stand as much chance to roll a 7 as you do to roll a double.
Maybe this is your goal idk.
I don't think it should be that easy to spot the Foul.
Fouling is the only attrition tactic available to all teams.
Posted by Catalyst32 on 2014-11-18 06:07:50
I don't think nerfing PO or CLAW or the KILLSTACK makes Elves any more powerful than they already are. I believe nerfing PO or CLAW or the KILLSTACK would actually WEAKEN Elves because teams that rely on these skills would take them less and instead take the skill that actually KILLS ELVES.
Tackle. Tackle kills Elves. Tackle keep Elves from Dodging away all over the place allowing more Blocks and not just Blitzes to take place. If you had Tackle on 3 more players rather than PO or Claw on a few or the Killstack on 1 player you would beat Elves more often.
.
The problem(s) with the Killstack as I see it is how it affects the non-AG4 races that cannot get the Killstack. Humans, Norse, Vampires, Undead, etc... those team cannot avoid the Block Elves can avoid and cannot dance around untouched all game long. And they cannot hit back with any consistency against the Killstack teams and get too beat up to take down the Elf teams.
I don't know what the solution is really. But the argument that pits Elves against CLPOMB is disingenuous. It ignores 1/3 of the game... the aspect of the game that is being destroyed by the Killstack is the teams in between the CLPOMB and the BLODGERS.
Tackle. Tackle kills Elves. Tackle keep Elves from Dodging away all over the place allowing more Blocks and not just Blitzes to take place. If you had Tackle on 3 more players rather than PO or Claw on a few or the Killstack on 1 player you would beat Elves more often.
.
The problem(s) with the Killstack as I see it is how it affects the non-AG4 races that cannot get the Killstack. Humans, Norse, Vampires, Undead, etc... those team cannot avoid the Block Elves can avoid and cannot dance around untouched all game long. And they cannot hit back with any consistency against the Killstack teams and get too beat up to take down the Elf teams.
I don't know what the solution is really. But the argument that pits Elves against CLPOMB is disingenuous. It ignores 1/3 of the game... the aspect of the game that is being destroyed by the Killstack is the teams in between the CLPOMB and the BLODGERS.