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2021-11-23 12:02:34
rating 4.7


2020-08-01 23:04:17
rating 5.5


2013-11-15 22:03:46
rating 3.1
2013-10-14 10:45:21
rating 3.7
2013-08-08 13:38:31
21 votes, rating 3.9
Response to blader's guide on his blog yesterday
Is this propaganda or is it a guide?
i have a feeling its written mostly to justify the behaviour, rather than to educate others
Remove the stuff about yourself, some context is nice but this just looks juvenile at the minute

History section is interesting info but some of the links didn't work on the google doc.
Remove the heroism propaganda from the history section's intro, min/max is about efficiency, not bravery. no-one ever took killer pact to prey on noob teams because they were brave.

cherrypicking section is bad. confusing, too much about you, and the orc team example doesnt explain anything well.
"Although coaches can be engaged in both, min/maxing is not the same as cherrypicking"

against the rules section - its not against the rules, simple.

the ethical stuff could/should be another section. i'd make it clear you're not talking about a league environment or building a team for a tournament, but instead it relates to the behaviour emergent in a TV-matching environment. if people don't like it, maybe it means they don't like a TV-matching environment and would prefer to play in [L]eague.

"Min/max teams have a huge advantage (particularly in the team-value based draws of Blackbox division) due to having more (and more effective) skills than an opposing team which does not min/max."

this is the crux of the article surely but you missed explaining why it works.

explain the synergy of stacking skills on a few players, makes it stronger than spreading skills around
explain that with only 1 blitz a turn, putting all kill-skills on the blitzer gives best value
explain that tying up opponents is done best by cheap no-skill meatshields
explain that having dodge and block on the same player is harder to knock down than block on one player, dodge on another player
explain that with only 1 guy carrying the ball at a time, you want him to have max chance of avoiding the knockdown

"Damnit, I’m about to be bent over by some Min/Maxers. What should I do?"
you missed any actually useful info here
how about tie up the killer, with cheap fodder? foul him every time you can? block him every time you can? focus on the low RRs of the minmax and make him take lots of chances?
read the rules about concession and consider bowing out of the game if you're losing, hating it, and the concession would be legal

"Section II: The Tactics of Min/Max"
you missed any actual tactics info here
rename it to "Min/Max Team Build Guide"

include some actual tactics, like:
how to play with very few rerolls and when to use/not use them
how to shield your killer, and set him up with targets to maximise his potential
discuss when to take a apothecary
discuss how many RR's to take
you missed mentioning anywhere a key component, that of firing healthy players once they get a skill to keep the TV down

downsides. all killer teams induce rage and drive players away, playing at low TV means you're less likely to kill someone's favorite legend.. but a significant issue is driving away rookie coaches in their first games, which would be very detrimental to the community.
other downsides? boring games? stifling? I dunno.

The main intro is bad and rambles around a lot, yet the point you're making is simple. how about this:

"Bloodbowl is a game with rules developed for tabletop league play
In a league environment it's effective to build a big team and bully everyone smaller than you, only held in check by spiraling expenses.

In a perpetual TV-matching environment, building a big team just means you face another big team.
Every skill you have is giving another skill to your average opponent, so every increase needs to justify its cost in team-value, otherwise compared to a well-managed opponent team of the same TV, you become bloated and less effective.

This naturally leads to team management, for example skinks don't have access to skills which really justify their cost, yet they'll be the ones scoring and gaining SPP.
it makes sense to fire them and stack skills on your saurus instead, and the team will be more effective as a result.

Some races are more effective at different TV than others.
for example chaos are bad at low TV but very dangerous at high TV when they're skilled.

The opposite would be norse and amazon who have great starting skills but AV7, so they're very strong at low TV where others have few skills. But as the TV climbs, they face opponents with more and more block, tackle, and mighty blow which will really punish their low armor.

These 2 factors (TV-management, and TV-sweet-spotting) are not really an issue in a league environment that BB was designed for, but blackbox isn't the environment BB was designed for.

If you're aiming to be effective in a TV-matching environment, it only makes sense to manage your TV and to play your team at a TV that best suits their race.

The majority of coaches will naturally do both of these things, to lesser or greater degrees.
Following these principles to the extreme is often referred to as min/maxing, and this is what will be discussed here."
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Posted by Sp00keh on 2013-08-08 13:42:59
the blog referred to is here:
Posted by Verminardo on 2013-08-08 14:09:17
I liked pythrr's reply better.
Posted by blader4411 on 2013-08-08 14:17:01
A lot of good stuff there!
Most of it's been implemented into my guide (though I don't consider a main point of the style to be bullying opponents :P )

Your name is now in the addendum, thanks for the contribution!
Posted by Sp00keh on 2013-08-08 14:30:54
reread what I said about bullying then blader, I think you've misunderstood
Posted by blader4411 on 2013-08-08 15:17:50
Ah sorry, I misread that (didn't see it was talking about League).
Posted by C3I2 on 2013-08-08 15:24:08
Ah, time for a blader update!
Posted by pythrr on 2013-08-08 16:20:03
I thought my critique was better.
Posted by fidius on 2013-08-08 21:08:50
Quote: "1. Play in the way that gives you maximum enjoyment. The time spent on FUMBBL is yours, and thus you should not be obliged to spend it looking after your opponent."

I'm not sure anything more needs to be said. What you've written is virtually the definition of an anti-social mindset.
Posted by Cloggy on 2013-08-08 21:20:38
Rated 1 for endulging attention seeker.....
Posted by fly on 2013-08-08 22:44:34
pollished lammer herretix ftw!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2013-08-08 22:55:44
fidius, you're apparently awesome. :D
Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-08-09 00:16:27
It's funny that 2 of the coaches commended for being 'revolutionary superstars' are 2 of the biggest scumbags to hit FUMBBL, and that have caused the site as much pain as they possibly could inflict in every way they possibly could.

The fact that they were also both path making minmaxers gods, doesn't that also tell you something about their methodology?

Spookeh seems to have improved things somewhat as now thankfully one of these lowlifes has now been removed from the 'what a damn fine pioneer you were' list.

Anyway, I've said too much as it is, and have had far too many bourbons and Dr Peppers.
Posted by Cloggy on 2013-08-09 09:38:00
/me banhammers Harvestmouse for drinking bourbon with Dr. Pepper.