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Poll
Do You Play In The Blackbox Tournament?
Yes, I've finished my 200 games.
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
Yes, I'm on my way to finishing the 200 games.
16%
 16%  [ 11 ]
Yes, but I won't be finishing the 200 games.
52%
 52%  [ 35 ]
No, I've never joined.
26%
 26%  [ 18 ]
Total Votes : 67


The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 19:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Trophy Stats as of Saturday
Image


In an endeavor I have named ‘Marriage Breaker’ I have decided to attempt to complete all 200 games of the Black Box Steel Gauntlet challenge. To do this, I must play 124 games in the next 76 days, or 1.6 Black Box games per day.


After a quick start in the first 2 months, which I enjoyed very much, I took several months off Box to focus on a few leagues, and to be a grown up and stuff.


I’m back in Box now, and like so many others, I am enjoying the new rules of BB2016 very much, especially when combined with the new forms of life that inhabit the Black Box. It is not quite as active now as it was at the start of the Steel Gauntlet challenge, but it is still good during European evenings.


Despite the mysterious absence of it’s founder, I hope it renews for a second season. I have a few sets of the original FUMBBL dice to contribute to the prize pool of Season 2, if someone wants to contact me about that when the time comes.


I know many great coaches just won’t have the time to complete 200 games, so I wanted to compare how some of the big names were doing on a ‘per-game’ basis. I computed the ‘points-per-game’ (FUMBBL Win %) of the top 20 leaders in the challenge, as well as a few other names I recognize from the FUMBBL world. The stats are in the pic below.


I removed the ‘Racial Leader’ award points when computing the ‘Win %’ stat.


Observations/Hypothesis:


The current leader is a beast. fxiii has an outstanding win percentage, and it is nice to see a FUMBBL warrior at the top whose Win % stands up even when compared to other rock stars who won’t finish. Very impressive.


happygrue is a beast slayer. Man, if that guy could get in 200 games we’d have a serious contender for the prize. He’s still getting in games, but I don’t know at what pace. Good luck!


Almost all players in the top 20 have good records which are solidly above a 0.55 points/game. I think that’s impressive, considering coaches are required to use sub-optimal teams for a decent percentage of the matches. Grinding out 200 games hasn’t gotten many to the top of the leader board.. wins and draws have. Nice.


It appears that the great coaches who went with 2 great and 2+ ‘poor’ teams are not doing as well as those who went with 1 great and 4 ‘meh’ teams. I think the real FUMBBL stars can get an amazing amount of wins out of Tier 2 teams, but to get ‘an amazing amount of wins’ with stunty goblins and hobbits is just a bridge too far. I think that meta would die off for the serious competitors if the rules roll into a second season ‘as-is.’


From my own experience, heroes make teams, especially for ‘Tier 2’ squads. I think one gets a real edge in the competition if they get early stats and doubles, like +AG on a fast elf, doubles for Block on a troll or treeman, or a mutation where the mutations really help. A superior ‘piece’ can really steal games from other Tier 2 teams in the low TV range, and a good coach is more likely to keep these pieces safe and accumulate more as the competition continues, so they eventually have 2 or 3 stars on a team when average opposition might have 1 or none. I think it’s a valid agrument for someone to say “I had mud luck with stats, and it really handicapped me.” I think I have been punching above my weight in the competition thus far, as I have done well in this STAT area. My first trolls rolled Block as skill #1, and his counterpart rolled +ST. Both of my elf teams hit +AG early on blitzers, one with +ST as well. The skaven did as skaven do, and I rolled the blitzer CLAW and gutter +MA-Legs combo I need to run my typical skaven game of ‘Hide-The-Claw/Cheese-A-Score/Score-Quick/Kitchen-Sink-Last-Stand.’ I think I can take a run at that racial title which might boost my score.


Questions for the group:


A) Who’s still in this? What’s your Win %? How have you enjoyed it?


B) Would you like to see a Season 2? What modifications to the format would you like to see? Any ideas?


C) What observations have you made? What can we ponder, postulate, speculate, and argue about?


My answers.. I’m still in it, to the detriment of my health, and I’m enjoying it. I’d like to see a Season 2 with some interesting changes proposed by the group. Hopefully we come up with some. Thanks to Christer for the sweet tracking page. Its fun to look at.


A few modification ideas: To counter the STAT disadvantage, I propose a coach can NOT enter the competition until each of his entry teams has exactly 5 games. This would possibly cause some team re-cycling of epic proportions, as coaches look for an early STAT advantage with each of their team submissions. I propose that a mass influx of team recycling in the Box would not be a bad thing. This could be paired with a reduced number of Games for the competition over-all.. say 15 per team instead of 20. I’m not sure if I like my idea.. but I’ll throw it out there.


#JakeSteelIsChrister

_________________
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Join the wait-list. Watch the action. Leave the Empire. Come to Bretonnia!
fxiii



Joined: Oct 30, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 19:59 Reply with quote Back to top

thanks for your post Smile

great event, i'll do it again, even if 300 game is needed Wink

i noticed less games after 2 monthes too, but have no idea how to solve that...

40 games with a team was really cool as we could try different kind of buidings !

the nolife guys challenge for the next 5 years: 100 games with a squad of each roster Very Happy
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 20:18 Reply with quote Back to top

@koadah - existing teams, no way

A large part of the point is the level playing field / fresh start / trying out new races

@Murker great post
I think 6 month cycle and 100 games would be a positive
But probably less than 5 teams, maybe 3 teams at 33 games each

#jakesteel I have wondered since the start whose second account it was
I assumed someone who wanted everyone else to play weak teams to farm them

But it's so analytical, and aimed at fixing box's problems, that yea it could have been Christer. He also got on board fairly quick with creating the special page and I think he rumbles something about maybe giving a prize. That's probably out of the goodness of his heart, but still it's funny to speculate
happygrue



Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 21:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Box Trophy got me playing in box again, so I'm all for it. It's been a blast, though at times super frustrating. Get a rough start with a team and it's hard for a while! But It's been great fun to play a lot of matches that "mean something" and also an event where team-building matters. It's a long slog, but that's what I enjoy about it!

I hope to finish my 200, but I've been slacking a bit lately due to Summer and nice weather. We'll see if I can catch fxiii... Wink

_________________
Come join us in #metabox, the Discord channel for HLP, ARR, and E.L.F. in the box!
Image
Bendrig



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 21:29 Reply with quote Back to top

The blackbox trophy started at about the same time I found fumbbl again after a 10 year break and I couldn't be happier about it.

It's pulled me back in hook, line and sinker. It has provided a goal that is more enticing than "get a good win or coach rating" or "build a good team". Every game played counts towards that elusive goal of 200, every tie or victory gets a little bit sweeter with that point added.

With 73 games to go in 75 days, I doubt I'll get to 200... but maybe, when the deadline really approaches... why else do we have vacation days, huh? :p

Definitely in for season 2, whatever form it may take.
GAZZATROT



Joined: Apr 26, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 21:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the quantity of the games and the duration seem right to me as well as the fact they are all fresh teams.

How about creating a special "Black Box" for those teams to compete in alone (I realise it's going against the point of the tournament, it's more as a discussion point).

I would like to see the BBT teams highlighted in the Current games tab thus encouraging me to spectate them.

_________________
Forever fearless, sometimes stupid.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 21:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I didn't participate to the trophy, but my observation is that the coaches who chose to play tier 3 teams were a bit penalized compared to coaches who avoided the tier 3 teams, since the squad composition system allows to avoid playing tier 3 teams.

So, 3 possible solutions come to mind, either:

- remove the tier 3 teams from the squad composition (bad because it reduces racial variety from the Box);
or
- force everybody to play one tier 3 team (bad because it could drive away coaches who hate to play stunty teams);
or
- increase the trophy points earned by playing tier 3 teams (this one looks like the best solution).
The current point system is: "A win gives 1 point, a tie gives 0.5 points and a loss gives 0 points." This point system is nice but doesn't work well with tier 3 teams.
It could be modified with: "A win with a tier 3 team gives 3 points, a tie gives 1.5 points and a loss gives 0 points" or something along this, it could be 4 for win, 2 for tie, 0 for loss, the idea is providing a bonus to make tier 3 teams more appealing.
This point system would apply ONLY to tier 3 teams, the other teams would continue to use the 1/0.5/0 point system.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 16, 2018 - 22:08; edited 1 time in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 22:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Thats so Dakka to not participate but offer suggestions that wouldnt get him participating anyway.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 22:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I would not participate anyway because I can't be bothered to build teams from scratch again.
I didn't say that I would participate in my previous post, by the way.
My suggestion was inspired by looking at the Trophy ladder and seeing good coaches in lower rankings because they played tier 3 teams.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 16, 2018 - 22:17; edited 2 times in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I would not participate anyway because I can't be bothered to build teams from scratch again.
I didn't say that I would participate in my previous post, by the way.


I know, and thats why that post was like peak Dakka. Put some skin in the game Wink
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 22:24 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't need to pursue the trophy to play in the Box. Razz

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 22:27 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I don't need to pursue the trophy to play in the Box. Razz


What if we both participated with identical starting teams are were just competing in the standings against one another? Neither of us really enjoys starting new teams but its good for the overall health. Also the winner can crow about it. What say ye?
kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 23:16 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:

Almost all players in the top 20 have good records which are solidly above a 0.55 points/game.

Questions for the group:

A) Who’s still in this? What’s your Win %? How have you enjoyed it?

B) Would you like to see a Season 2? What modifications to the format would you like to see? Any ideas?

C) What observations have you made? What can we ponder, postulate, speculate, and argue about?


A) I am still in. 142 games in 75 (74?) days means some work but still possible withing reasoning limits. Currently win% is 52,5 but i am aiming for 55+ (i think i don't have the teams nor the skill to try and be #1 but i am doing this more to myself and less comparing myself to others).

B) I am joining next season. I have chosen my next squad for it too - but will keep in watch in case there are rule changes either in length (won't matter much) or in tiers/points (might completely change my squad).

I don't have suggestion about changes tho. I like the format as it is. 100 games in 6 months seems one thing to be considered tho (nice suggestion Datom).

C) I feel like it's very much from coach to coach if they get more points with picking one 1-point team and rest 2-points vs if they pick one or two 3 point teams and change them to stunties. I feel like if coaches want to aim for max possible point they can get themselves, they should watch for their UW, vamp and stunties teams and pick the one which is their strongest and then build rest around that knowledge.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 00:20 Reply with quote Back to top

I am kicking around some ideas for season 2. The biggest question is if old teams should be allowed.

On the con side, people say they don't want new teams to compete against older teams. In my view, new teams would not be competing against older teams. The playing field would be fairly level since new teams would not draw the older teams, and everyone gets the same points for a win no matter what your TV is. In most cases, I don't think Having a high TV team will help you win the tournament.

My one reservation here is sweet spotting. I could choose to play my high TV Nurgle and CDs but my rookie teams will be something like Amazons.

The pro side is that you would not have to start a new team every time you want to compete. It is likely to bring in coaches who feel like they have enough teams already.

The other big question is number of games, number of teams, and season length. The number of teams feels right as it promotes play with a variety of teams. The number of games and length of the season is probably too big. Fewer games over a shorter period is also likely to bring in more interest.

Anyway, there are still a couple of months to kick this around.
Rags



Joined: Nov 09, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2018 - 00:49 Reply with quote Back to top

GAZZATROT wrote:
I just wish to congratulate the makers of the Blackbox Trophy!

Having been away for sometime, I'm unsure how many times this tournament has been run, but I think it's such a clever little format.

Not only does it mean there's a year long tournament running, but it of course brings a fantastic mix of teams into the box.

Each day I activate I feel I'm in a tournament and each Blackbox game really matters!

I for one bring High Elves/Vamps/Ogres and naturally others do too.

I've set myself the target of playing 2 games a day for the next 100 days and hope to finish in the top 20.

I encourage anyone who hasn't joined yet to give it a whirl.

Once again, well done to whomever invented it!


Spot on, well said. Just to add it cuts past all the bitching about minmax, cherrypicking, stacked box activation, and all that noise. You pick an imperfect squad and get on with it! Bravo
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