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2011-03-10 22:13:56
74 votes, rating 4
74 votes, rating 4
The new LRB6 boringness..
.. after another game vs a team with just one claw/mb/po player, who almost single handedly won the game, i really start thinking about a break in playing BB until balancing is restored again.
Beside the fact, that coaching skill isnt needed anymore, the really severe problem is, that most coaches (understandably) stick with playing claw teams, which reduces the variety of races played. Very sad...
Imho PO needs to be changed to only reroll armor, not injury
and
DP has to be strengthened again.
This could be done by improving sneaky git to be never spotted on armor rolls, and/or giving the foul action +1 on the av roll.
Furthermore i think Claw should need a Double on the Skill roll again.
Beside the fact, that coaching skill isnt needed anymore, the really severe problem is, that most coaches (understandably) stick with playing claw teams, which reduces the variety of races played. Very sad...
Imho PO needs to be changed to only reroll armor, not injury
and
DP has to be strengthened again.
This could be done by improving sneaky git to be never spotted on armor rolls, and/or giving the foul action +1 on the av roll.
Furthermore i think Claw should need a Double on the Skill roll again.
Comments
Posted by Malmir on 2011-03-10 22:29:12
I totally see your point of view and probably agree with you overall, although I'd rather play lrb6 than not at all.
Posted by Qaz on 2011-03-10 22:35:55
lrb4?
Posted by Wreckage on 2011-03-10 22:38:43
that's why I suggested several times to make an LRB7 with only 1 new rule:
Piling on: Only affects armor rolls but can be also used on fouls :)
Piling on: Only affects armor rolls but can be also used on fouls :)
Posted by Craftnburn on 2011-03-10 22:45:16
Various Nerfs to PO have been suggested before. My current favorite is probably:
"After all effects of Piling On have been applied roll a d6. On a 1 the Piling On player has injured himself. Roll on the Injury table to see how badly the player is hurt."
"After all effects of Piling On have been applied roll a d6. On a 1 the Piling On player has injured himself. Roll on the Injury table to see how badly the player is hurt."
Posted by Azure on 2011-03-10 22:57:13
I would change that to:
"After all effects of Piling On have been applied roll a d6. On a 1 the Piling On player has injured himself. Roll on the Injury table to see how badly the player is hurt. Treat all CAS results as KO instead."
"After all effects of Piling On have been applied roll a d6. On a 1 the Piling On player has injured himself. Roll on the Injury table to see how badly the player is hurt. Treat all CAS results as KO instead."
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2011-03-10 23:00:55
unnerf dp 2012
Posted by Craftnburn on 2011-03-10 23:05:04
<Azure> Maybe Nothing worse than BH.. but there should be greater risk than just KO.
Posted by 98hartj on 2011-03-10 23:22:55
<Azure,Craftnbum> Wouldn't be BB without the risk of killing yourself!!!
Posted by pythrr on 2011-03-10 23:28:24
or u could always just play in R?
Posted by Macavity on 2011-03-11 03:39:04
Why not play an anti- claw/mb/po team? I'm still confused by people who want to play the bashing game, and are mad at people using the best bashing skill combo....
Posted by studmandudebro on 2011-03-11 04:19:15
the tears of an orc coach
Posted by Cloggy on 2011-03-11 05:15:36
It hardly matters what he coaches or what you think of his opinion Studman. If things stay as they are now you'll soon be mostly alone and exclusively playing clawed out team against clawed out team.
Would save us having to listen to your stupid "mens" prattle though, so perhaps that's a good thing.
It's a very real problem when a large percentage of coaches feels that the game isn't fun anymore. Feel free to cuddle your BBR to death, but please stop disrespecting those that enjoy a different brand of Bloodbowl than you do.
Would save us having to listen to your stupid "mens" prattle though, so perhaps that's a good thing.
It's a very real problem when a large percentage of coaches feels that the game isn't fun anymore. Feel free to cuddle your BBR to death, but please stop disrespecting those that enjoy a different brand of Bloodbowl than you do.
Posted by Arktoris on 2011-03-11 06:02:23
I agree sneaky git should be made more powerful. Other than that, keep all else the same.
Posted by Catalyst32 on 2011-03-11 07:35:54
PO should cause the player falling down to have to roll their own AV for throwing themselves onto the ground.
Posted by Wreckage on 2011-03-11 08:38:09
so you all think the damage from rerolling the injury roll is all right and that blocks should cause gamebreaking damage as long as there is a drawback.
I'm a bit surprised I must admit. I figured the main objective would be to have no impact on injury rolls greater then +1 by natural means in skill and to strenghen fouls on such a level that it could compete with blocks without being broken to archieve a greater balance between the races and avoid gamebreaking combos with very low TV. Also it would be entirely in the spirit of the game to avoid rulewise complicated constructs with additioal rules that trigger additional effects like vampires do. Yet almost everyone else seems to think making PO like a vampire skill, ie just making it completely random instead of reliable and not gamebreaking to be a better idea.
Not that this discussion matters, yet from a philosophical point that's a bit disappointing.
I'm a bit surprised I must admit. I figured the main objective would be to have no impact on injury rolls greater then +1 by natural means in skill and to strenghen fouls on such a level that it could compete with blocks without being broken to archieve a greater balance between the races and avoid gamebreaking combos with very low TV. Also it would be entirely in the spirit of the game to avoid rulewise complicated constructs with additioal rules that trigger additional effects like vampires do. Yet almost everyone else seems to think making PO like a vampire skill, ie just making it completely random instead of reliable and not gamebreaking to be a better idea.
Not that this discussion matters, yet from a philosophical point that's a bit disappointing.
Posted by Garion on 2011-03-11 08:41:49
Everyone knows PO should only be Av only, its so obviously ruining the game. I just hope some people make a fumbbl league with rules that say no PO allowed.
The other rule changes you suggest are alright but they arent really needed if PO was av only.
The other rule changes you suggest are alright but they arent really needed if PO was av only.
Posted by Calcium on 2011-03-11 09:26:10
A Lot of suggestions here, but the only one I agree with is Wreckage's. Any suggestion of modifying the injury table beyond the natural result is frankly stupid, and somethiing that would slide this game further down the toilet.
And Malmir was spot on with the 1st comment as well.
remember people, there is a 'no Clawpomb' division, it's called R.
I end with this thought.....loads of coaches crying about too much blood? In BLOODBOWL? :)
And Malmir was spot on with the 1st comment as well.
remember people, there is a 'no Clawpomb' division, it's called R.
I end with this thought.....loads of coaches crying about too much blood? In BLOODBOWL? :)
Posted by fabik on 2011-03-11 09:27:41
Another post on this matter, this combo is killing the game...
Posted by Flix on 2011-03-11 09:44:38
It was realy clear to me that that will happen when galac reviewed the rules at TBB/TFF
Posted by fabik on 2011-03-11 09:48:02
Calcium, blood is not the problem, the problem is that in [B] with these rules a lot of teams are worthless cause the rules are STROGLY unbalanced now
Posted by SergeiBautin on 2011-03-11 10:35:15
And in the "good old days" the killers with claw+rsc didnt do the same thing? I think the change to claw is very nice, elves rejoice :)
Posted by Calcium on 2011-03-11 10:38:22
The rules should be unbalanced. Were the old cards/kick off table balanced? NO. were they FUN? HELL YES.
The BBRC and their obsession with 'balance' is why the rules are as screwed up as they are now. Get a grip everyone, this game's premise is about dying/cheating on the pitch, you know, a fun parody of American football and sport in general?
I remember in the 2nd edition when you could assasinate a player BEFORE a match, and that player was DEAD. Thaat was fun, but that was long before a large group of coaches became all precious about their pixels.
One thing I do agree on though, this ruleset is not as much fun as previous ones....
The BBRC and their obsession with 'balance' is why the rules are as screwed up as they are now. Get a grip everyone, this game's premise is about dying/cheating on the pitch, you know, a fun parody of American football and sport in general?
I remember in the 2nd edition when you could assasinate a player BEFORE a match, and that player was DEAD. Thaat was fun, but that was long before a large group of coaches became all precious about their pixels.
One thing I do agree on though, this ruleset is not as much fun as previous ones....
Posted by fabik on 2011-03-11 11:03:52
I'm not pixel addicted, every time a player dies it's funny, but having from 5 to 9 cas every match it's not.
Having a LOT of different teams is Funny, having 80% teams that are inside three or four teams type is not.
It's not a matter of balance, partially yes but the real matter is that tha game now is all about this combo and this kills everithing!
Having a LOT of different teams is Funny, having 80% teams that are inside three or four teams type is not.
It's not a matter of balance, partially yes but the real matter is that tha game now is all about this combo and this kills everithing!
Posted by Reisender on 2011-03-11 13:36:38
hmmm its funny that the coaches who ask for balls only play clawpomb cheesyness themselves....
we had janmattys, paulhicks and macavity
now we have calcium, studbro and the POmb....
we had janmattys, paulhicks and macavity
now we have calcium, studbro and the POmb....
Posted by maysrill on 2011-03-11 13:37:20
Ranked? I think it's been suggested.
While some people will continue to play elves, rats, etc. in the Box, many/most won't be able to resist the temptation of killer teams you can't avoid (at least, while still playing Box games).
The reasoning behind it is no different that the LRB4 Box, filled with DP-bloated khemri and Claw/RSC chaos. Clawbomb pact/chaos/nurgle/(skaven)/(underworld) teams are just a more extreme incarnation.
Aside from the shortage of teams on gamefinder these days, I'm enjoying Ranked much more than Box lately.
While some people will continue to play elves, rats, etc. in the Box, many/most won't be able to resist the temptation of killer teams you can't avoid (at least, while still playing Box games).
The reasoning behind it is no different that the LRB4 Box, filled with DP-bloated khemri and Claw/RSC chaos. Clawbomb pact/chaos/nurgle/(skaven)/(underworld) teams are just a more extreme incarnation.
Aside from the shortage of teams on gamefinder these days, I'm enjoying Ranked much more than Box lately.
Posted by Calcium on 2011-03-11 13:40:47
LOL reisender, how many games do you have with humans in the box? Oh thats right...NONE. I have 200+. you fale.
Posted by Carnis on 2011-03-11 13:56:45
I agree rerolling injuries with PO is too much, this is the casualties my team has been doing (3x clawmbpo, 2x dp) in the last 10 games while preparing for CoS (for-against):
9-1
5-1
6-2
6-4
3-3
7-2
10-1
10-1
10-3
6-3
8-1
4-0
5-11 - against RO's chaos, he won the cointoss & the game.
1-2
1-2
However, improving DP would just aggravate the problem, as there is nothing stopping PO coaches from stacking on DP as well while protecting their POs with some positioning + fouls.
I actually wrote a forum post about this about 2 years ago, which got me the response "position better". It was about dwarfs spamming MBPO on av7 teams though, a slightly different but related phenomena.
The games are not really that enjoyable for the clawbomber either, as a consistent casrate of 6+ per game just ruins it for both basicly.
That being said, if PO was nerfed to only work on armor, then a lot of non-claw access teams would be worse off.. and ClawMB would then just become the broken combination, and PO would become a flair addition for 1-2 players!
9-1
5-1
6-2
6-4
3-3
7-2
10-1
10-1
10-3
6-3
8-1
4-0
5-11 - against RO's chaos, he won the cointoss & the game.
1-2
1-2
However, improving DP would just aggravate the problem, as there is nothing stopping PO coaches from stacking on DP as well while protecting their POs with some positioning + fouls.
I actually wrote a forum post about this about 2 years ago, which got me the response "position better". It was about dwarfs spamming MBPO on av7 teams though, a slightly different but related phenomena.
The games are not really that enjoyable for the clawbomber either, as a consistent casrate of 6+ per game just ruins it for both basicly.
That being said, if PO was nerfed to only work on armor, then a lot of non-claw access teams would be worse off.. and ClawMB would then just become the broken combination, and PO would become a flair addition for 1-2 players!
Posted by SzieberthAdam on 2011-03-11 14:14:02
Just Make PO a foul.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2011-03-11 14:35:30
a bloo bloo bloo my av9 mens might get hurt, it's so boring!
Posted by moonray on 2011-03-11 15:35:37
Reading Carnis post about his average CAS-Stats says everything to me. If it doesn't matter if you can anticipate your opponents moves, plan your own, think what to do this turn, what will your opponent do against this ... you know, this whole "good coaching stuff" and it's all reduced to a coin toss and who's hitting first will win, why should I play (against) such team? I could meet with friends and enjoy tossing coins instead.
@jimmy ... it's not the complaints which are boring, the clawpomb teams are boring. With a 56% chance to knock players out even a really bad designed AI which positions for 2d blocks pressing block, blitz, PO -> yes if not stunned, then (maybe) go for the ball(carrier) could reach your BWR or the BBR which you love so much.
@jimmy ... it's not the complaints which are boring, the clawpomb teams are boring. With a 56% chance to knock players out even a really bad designed AI which positions for 2d blocks pressing block, blitz, PO -> yes if not stunned, then (maybe) go for the ball(carrier) could reach your BWR or the BBR which you love so much.
Posted by SavageJ on 2011-03-11 15:47:06
I still haven't seen the fend- and wrestle-spamming that would help survivability against clawpombs. It seems from this discussion that our community would rather rules-tinker than team-build-tinker. Maybe a solution exists within these rules. Are we sure we haven't tried everything yet and have to resort to rules changes?
Posted by Keith-Lemon on 2011-03-11 16:06:38
I agree with this blog LRB6 (CRP) Has made BB boring, BB just dont seem like BB any more.
Any one saying about LRB4 with claw RSC etc etc you had to roll doubles to get them at least.
Any one saying about LRB4 with claw RSC etc etc you had to roll doubles to get them at least.
Posted by PainState on 2011-03-11 16:29:56
This is a divison issue not a rules issue.
As purplegoo pointed out a month ago the rules of the Div do effect how we play the game.
Box....Build CL/PO/MB killers and no one can dodge you. Box is a great div for the ultra min/max killer teams
Ranked....Since choice is involved you cannot build box style killer teams and get games, so you have to build you teams with that in mind. Thus more middle of the road builds or non bash specialty teams.
The biggest issue of all this box VS ranked stuff is that the Box guys seem to lean towards the attitude of: You should be able to make what ever team you want and play some blood bowl with out your opponeet getting bent out of shape.
Were the Ranked guys seem to have the attitude that min/maxed out killer teams is just not fun.
That seems more like a personeal issue than a BB issue. And if you say it is a divison issue, once again a FUMBBL issue not a BB issue.
Brainsaw I noticed you last 30+ games have all been in the Box...try going back to ranked and for you the world will probally be all sunny again.
As purplegoo pointed out a month ago the rules of the Div do effect how we play the game.
Box....Build CL/PO/MB killers and no one can dodge you. Box is a great div for the ultra min/max killer teams
Ranked....Since choice is involved you cannot build box style killer teams and get games, so you have to build you teams with that in mind. Thus more middle of the road builds or non bash specialty teams.
The biggest issue of all this box VS ranked stuff is that the Box guys seem to lean towards the attitude of: You should be able to make what ever team you want and play some blood bowl with out your opponeet getting bent out of shape.
Were the Ranked guys seem to have the attitude that min/maxed out killer teams is just not fun.
That seems more like a personeal issue than a BB issue. And if you say it is a divison issue, once again a FUMBBL issue not a BB issue.
Brainsaw I noticed you last 30+ games have all been in the Box...try going back to ranked and for you the world will probally be all sunny again.
Posted by Frankenstein on 2011-03-11 16:45:02
To all the imbeciles out there who want to improve fouling and/or wish the old DP came back:
Teams which would gain the greatest benefit from such a change:
Chaos, Chaos Pact, Nurgle and Chaos Dwarfs. Those few players which don't die immediately to their Clawpombs they'll just foul into the injury box.
Teams which would gain the greatest benefit from such a change:
Chaos, Chaos Pact, Nurgle and Chaos Dwarfs. Those few players which don't die immediately to their Clawpombs they'll just foul into the injury box.
Posted by Frankenstein on 2011-03-11 16:48:31
PainState:
There are almost no worthwhile tournaments in the box. There's nothing there to play for, even winning is meaningless (unless you care for the silly top 10, which even encourages everyone to play Clawpomb teams as well as Carnis and RandomOracle impressively have proved).
There are almost no worthwhile tournaments in the box. There's nothing there to play for, even winning is meaningless (unless you care for the silly top 10, which even encourages everyone to play Clawpomb teams as well as Carnis and RandomOracle impressively have proved).
Posted by Garion on 2011-03-11 17:19:15
There is something to play for, the most important thing of all. Fun :)
Posted by fabik on 2011-03-11 17:27:34
I Love ppl who get personal if someone says that Clawbomb it's boring... lol
Posted by Macavity on 2011-03-11 17:46:34
Reisender, I gotta say I don't get your statement at all.....
Calcium is the new Jan? I've been replaced by a skill combo? Once I'm back to playing, I defy any killer coach who has even THOUGHT the words "Man up" as a response to criticism to play me. I will teach them the error of their ways.
As for Paulhicks, literally the most fun I've ever had playing this game was against him. What did he try to do? Foul me with his fer-crying-out-loud mummies!
I'm sorry, but I'm really only hearing that weird 'scrub' attitude in 95% of the criticism (If you know your point is perfect you are the 5%). What I keep hearing is, "I want a bashy game, but not this kind." Can we have an elf or rat coach complaining for a change? What's that? Their normal stat line negate the usefulness of claw? WHAT? Unbelievable! How over-powered!
(stress makes me sarcastic, when my boss gets back from vacation my perspective may change!)
Calcium is the new Jan? I've been replaced by a skill combo? Once I'm back to playing, I defy any killer coach who has even THOUGHT the words "Man up" as a response to criticism to play me. I will teach them the error of their ways.
As for Paulhicks, literally the most fun I've ever had playing this game was against him. What did he try to do? Foul me with his fer-crying-out-loud mummies!
I'm sorry, but I'm really only hearing that weird 'scrub' attitude in 95% of the criticism (If you know your point is perfect you are the 5%). What I keep hearing is, "I want a bashy game, but not this kind." Can we have an elf or rat coach complaining for a change? What's that? Their normal stat line negate the usefulness of claw? WHAT? Unbelievable! How over-powered!
(stress makes me sarcastic, when my boss gets back from vacation my perspective may change!)
Posted by Calcium on 2011-03-11 18:40:55
I'm the new Jan? JanMatty's? Or is there another imfamous Jan I don't know about?
I wouldn't consider that an insult, as I always enjoyed playing Jan!
@ Mac....nice reply!
I wouldn't consider that an insult, as I always enjoyed playing Jan!
@ Mac....nice reply!
Posted by benjysmyth on 2011-03-11 19:02:30
I kinda agree with maysrill, painstate and pythrr. Just play R, as this is simply a division issue (and yes, I do know I have never played in B, so if that disqualifies me from commenting on the issue, feel free not to read on).
These builds will appear in B because they can. CRP (and BB in general) was never designed for perpetually scheduled matches with no incentive to both (i) build a team that is competetive to face allcomers in the short term and, most importantly, (ii) actually win the game. You could never min-max a team like you can in B in a regular TT season, or even several seasons. However, as was predicted would occur, the community has broken the ruleset in this environment. Once it became apparent this was possible a proportion of coaches (who have a perfectly legitimate idea of what's fun) get on the bandwagon in the arms race, and the chance to have (another type of person's perfectly legitimate idea of) fun, i.e., competetive games against a wide variety of teams, disappears.
Whatever its faults in terms of picking/dodging tough matches/eflballing/etc., R has a natural way of correcting attempts to bust the ruleset in the way it has been in B, and keeping the meta in check, i.e., you start to try and build a Clawpomb team in R and you will get spotted a mile off and no one will play you. Yes, R will never be perfect and some people will dodge perfectly fair games whatever you offer, but if you want to play against a wide variety of teams with a wide variety of builds I can't really see why you wouldn't be putting your teams on GF in R.
From a personal perspective, I gotta say that even though R has been slow recently, all the games I have played have been great fun. No douchebag coaches (as of yet), different opposition every game, and generally just a lot of fun.
If this issue in B is really p1ssing everyone off so much then why not just do something about it? Allow people to play in B in the manner they want, as they are entitled to do exactly as they wish within the rules of the division. Then you can do exactly as you wish (i.e., chose/pick/whatever your games) in R, as you are entitled to do within the rules of the division. I don't see why the issue is causing so much angst and argument when the solution is hardly rocket science.
These builds will appear in B because they can. CRP (and BB in general) was never designed for perpetually scheduled matches with no incentive to both (i) build a team that is competetive to face allcomers in the short term and, most importantly, (ii) actually win the game. You could never min-max a team like you can in B in a regular TT season, or even several seasons. However, as was predicted would occur, the community has broken the ruleset in this environment. Once it became apparent this was possible a proportion of coaches (who have a perfectly legitimate idea of what's fun) get on the bandwagon in the arms race, and the chance to have (another type of person's perfectly legitimate idea of) fun, i.e., competetive games against a wide variety of teams, disappears.
Whatever its faults in terms of picking/dodging tough matches/eflballing/etc., R has a natural way of correcting attempts to bust the ruleset in the way it has been in B, and keeping the meta in check, i.e., you start to try and build a Clawpomb team in R and you will get spotted a mile off and no one will play you. Yes, R will never be perfect and some people will dodge perfectly fair games whatever you offer, but if you want to play against a wide variety of teams with a wide variety of builds I can't really see why you wouldn't be putting your teams on GF in R.
From a personal perspective, I gotta say that even though R has been slow recently, all the games I have played have been great fun. No douchebag coaches (as of yet), different opposition every game, and generally just a lot of fun.
If this issue in B is really p1ssing everyone off so much then why not just do something about it? Allow people to play in B in the manner they want, as they are entitled to do exactly as they wish within the rules of the division. Then you can do exactly as you wish (i.e., chose/pick/whatever your games) in R, as you are entitled to do within the rules of the division. I don't see why the issue is causing so much angst and argument when the solution is hardly rocket science.
Posted by RandomOracle on 2011-03-11 19:25:20
Who says a clawbomb team can't face all comers or win games? It's the best bash combo currently in the game, which is why it shouldn't be a surprise that people are taking it. To say it's a division issue is just silly to me.
Posted by benjysmyth on 2011-03-11 19:55:24
RandomOracle, I absolutely agree with you that, in the long-term, you will win a lot of your games with a min-maxed 4 clawpomb player + rookiees team.
But in the short-term no-one will give you the opportunity to build your team to that point - apart from in B, as they have no choice.
My point about the ruleset in relation to TT games was that, even though, like B, you have to play scheduled matches, they are either tournaments, so nowhere near enough games to make min-maxed killer team, or leagues with a certain number of games, so that in order to get your team to the point we see in B, you would have to play for several seasons, drawn out across a lot of weeks/months/years. This is itself a natural deterrent to making a min-maxed team, as who wants to spend the one night a week/month they get to play TT chasing after a blodging elf just so they can develop a mix-maxed killer team in 5 years time. I'll just take tackle next skill thanks.
B circumvents the natural process of meta-game balancing inherent to TT leagues as you can play as many games across a weekend as you could in a year of a TT league. Hence, you take the short-term pain of hiring/firing one week for the gain of having your killer team up and running the next.
And as I said, in R you simply avoid them.
So it is a divison issue, as these teams will only ever appear/get games in B.
I think that leads into the underlying point to my first post, which I probably didn't make clear: unless you are a total n00b to FUMBBL, we all go into whatever divison we choose to play in with our eyes open as to the nature of that divison. If you are a player who thinks 4 clawpomb + rookiee teams are broken and don't want to play them... play in a division where you don't have to.
But in the short-term no-one will give you the opportunity to build your team to that point - apart from in B, as they have no choice.
My point about the ruleset in relation to TT games was that, even though, like B, you have to play scheduled matches, they are either tournaments, so nowhere near enough games to make min-maxed killer team, or leagues with a certain number of games, so that in order to get your team to the point we see in B, you would have to play for several seasons, drawn out across a lot of weeks/months/years. This is itself a natural deterrent to making a min-maxed team, as who wants to spend the one night a week/month they get to play TT chasing after a blodging elf just so they can develop a mix-maxed killer team in 5 years time. I'll just take tackle next skill thanks.
B circumvents the natural process of meta-game balancing inherent to TT leagues as you can play as many games across a weekend as you could in a year of a TT league. Hence, you take the short-term pain of hiring/firing one week for the gain of having your killer team up and running the next.
And as I said, in R you simply avoid them.
So it is a divison issue, as these teams will only ever appear/get games in B.
I think that leads into the underlying point to my first post, which I probably didn't make clear: unless you are a total n00b to FUMBBL, we all go into whatever divison we choose to play in with our eyes open as to the nature of that divison. If you are a player who thinks 4 clawpomb + rookiee teams are broken and don't want to play them... play in a division where you don't have to.
Posted by RandomOracle on 2011-03-11 20:07:01
I agree that minmaxing is a division issue, but clawbombs are by no means limited to minmaxed teams. In my opinion, you're mixing two separate issues here.
Posted by Garion on 2011-03-11 20:26:14
RO is correct he has not got a min max team, he just has a regular Chaos team with a lot of Claw MB PO. The results are similar though - only RO isnt a coward so doesnt sit at a TV of 1400 killing new teams, he kills all the top ones instead lol
Also its not a divisional issue, the min maxing thing is, but thats not what has happened here. R is more a divisional thing because people play by their own set of pre determined rules. BB doesnt have that all the teams have been built within accordance with the rules and while min maxing wouldnt work in a TT league, building chaos teams in the way RO has does work if you league is more than say 20 or 30 games or a continual one over a few seasons.
Also its not a divisional issue, the min maxing thing is, but thats not what has happened here. R is more a divisional thing because people play by their own set of pre determined rules. BB doesnt have that all the teams have been built within accordance with the rules and while min maxing wouldnt work in a TT league, building chaos teams in the way RO has does work if you league is more than say 20 or 30 games or a continual one over a few seasons.
Posted by maysrill on 2011-03-11 20:30:45
The basic issue is complaining about other people's teams.
Play Ranked. Stay out of tournaments. You'll never play against a skill (or combo of skills) you don't like again. Or, if you prefer, you can play such teams in moderation. Or you can specifically design a team to defeat teams like that and seek them out.
Ranked = play against whoever and whatever you want, so long as you can both agree (warning: may take some actual work)
BlackBox = play against whatever the other coaches activate
One of these is clearly superior for addressing your particular beef.
Play Ranked. Stay out of tournaments. You'll never play against a skill (or combo of skills) you don't like again. Or, if you prefer, you can play such teams in moderation. Or you can specifically design a team to defeat teams like that and seek them out.
Ranked = play against whoever and whatever you want, so long as you can both agree (warning: may take some actual work)
BlackBox = play against whatever the other coaches activate
One of these is clearly superior for addressing your particular beef.
Posted by PainState on 2011-03-11 21:05:30
WEll Garion the concept that R is a divisional issue and Box is not, well I disagree.
Yes people do play with their own set of pre determined rules or lets call it predetermined thoughts on what is fair or fun or their own version of what is "cheese". These are personal issues.
Box and Ranked per the rules have the exact same rules. Expcept for how you arrange matches.
Thus a person who has personeal issues on how he feels teams should be built will probally have serious issues with playing in the box, as the OP seems to have.
SO it is a divisonal issue...Box allows coaches to build their teams in what ever fashion they so desire and the opponeet will have to play them (period). That leads to all this emo rage stuff because deep down some coaches are jamming squares through round holes thinking that in the box you are going to get diverstity of races and tactics.
At high TV in the box what chaos/nurgle/CP is not going to have multiple CL/MB/PO players? 1)its a good tactic to remove players 2)the box, because it removes coaches own predetermined set of rules because of the scheduler go emo rage when they themselves think that a chaos team like Ro's is all cheese and anti-fun.
Thus we come back around to the divisonal issue that the Box in the end removes coaches own pre determined set of rules AND there is no mechanism to prevent coaches from making what ever type of team they so desire. Thus the root of all this emo rage crap from some quarters...I will not say man up..I will say go play in a div that does not frustrate the hell out of you and stop jamming a R shaped block through a B shaped hole. You will only frustrate yourself and fill the blogs with rage.
Yes people do play with their own set of pre determined rules or lets call it predetermined thoughts on what is fair or fun or their own version of what is "cheese". These are personal issues.
Box and Ranked per the rules have the exact same rules. Expcept for how you arrange matches.
Thus a person who has personeal issues on how he feels teams should be built will probally have serious issues with playing in the box, as the OP seems to have.
SO it is a divisonal issue...Box allows coaches to build their teams in what ever fashion they so desire and the opponeet will have to play them (period). That leads to all this emo rage stuff because deep down some coaches are jamming squares through round holes thinking that in the box you are going to get diverstity of races and tactics.
At high TV in the box what chaos/nurgle/CP is not going to have multiple CL/MB/PO players? 1)its a good tactic to remove players 2)the box, because it removes coaches own predetermined set of rules because of the scheduler go emo rage when they themselves think that a chaos team like Ro's is all cheese and anti-fun.
Thus we come back around to the divisonal issue that the Box in the end removes coaches own pre determined set of rules AND there is no mechanism to prevent coaches from making what ever type of team they so desire. Thus the root of all this emo rage crap from some quarters...I will not say man up..I will say go play in a div that does not frustrate the hell out of you and stop jamming a R shaped block through a B shaped hole. You will only frustrate yourself and fill the blogs with rage.
Posted by PainState on 2011-03-11 21:10:25
and then for comic relief wonder what tha L shaped block is laying on the ground that you forgot to install.
Posted by Tomay on 2011-03-11 22:41:13
The new apoth sucks and needs to be fixed, bring back dp and the problem will be somewhat solved, those dp's should deal with PO's well enough. But really its not that bad, get some dodge, some ag and run around them - the same it always was.
Posted by pizzamogul on 2011-03-11 23:38:11
Restrengthen DP and make it an Agility skill.
Posted by Tomay on 2011-03-12 03:29:28
The good news is I think [L] play will be better than ever, which is great for me. SWL ftw!
Posted by shadow46x2 on 2011-03-12 08:20:48
your first mistake was in thinking this game ever had anything remotely related to "balance"
Posted by Garion on 2011-03-12 09:00:05
I wish people would stop saying bring back DP, as a solution to PO heavy teams, all this would do would be make PO heavy teams even more powerful and dominant. I try and foul the killer players every cahnce i get but the vast majority of the time these players are surrounded by team mates when prone anyway so it is hard to get a foul in. Making fouls as they were would just add even more power to these teams.
The fix is simple, make PO av only. That is all that is needed.
The fix is simple, make PO av only. That is all that is needed.
Posted by shadow46x2 on 2011-03-12 10:00:25
garion, i think there's a few more blog posts or forum posts that you haven't posted that idea on yet....
Posted by TheCount on 2011-03-12 15:28:50
We only need one thing changed:
Every player needs a double for getting a mutation. This reduces the number of ClawPOMB-players a lot AND raises their price in TV. Yes there will be these killer-machines, but there will be less and a little bit more expensive.
I vote against improving the DP skill. DP and the foul rules are good.
Every player needs a double for getting a mutation. This reduces the number of ClawPOMB-players a lot AND raises their price in TV. Yes there will be these killer-machines, but there will be less and a little bit more expensive.
I vote against improving the DP skill. DP and the foul rules are good.
Posted by Fela on 2011-03-12 15:35:22
POMB is just as big a problem as Clawpomb, just for a different set of teams. PO is the problem, not claw.
Posted by latulike on 2011-12-26 19:28:14
Since PO is the problem... how about considering PO to be a foul action?
It is as killing as fouls and surely not considered a "legal" action from the referee. Would also limit this action to once per turn...
It is as killing as fouls and surely not considered a "legal" action from the referee. Would also limit this action to once per turn...