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2010-03-10 22:23:02
44 votes, rating 3.1
44 votes, rating 3.1
CtC
Cripple the Complainers
There has been alot of posts lately regarding whiners. I personally find it amusing and annoying in turns, but sad, always sad.
There is a fun way to deal with poor sports: BREAK THEM
Most whiners speak up when the game is lost. When someone really whines do the community a favour. Crowd push and foul them into the ground. That way the next coach they face may find them a more congenial opponent.
Manners out the window for opponent= manners out the window for me. I am not saying sacrifice your own team. I am saying crowd push and foul their last players for no reason. When they bitch some more write "sorry I CtC".
There has been alot of posts lately regarding whiners. I personally find it amusing and annoying in turns, but sad, always sad.
There is a fun way to deal with poor sports: BREAK THEM
Most whiners speak up when the game is lost. When someone really whines do the community a favour. Crowd push and foul them into the ground. That way the next coach they face may find them a more congenial opponent.
Manners out the window for opponent= manners out the window for me. I am not saying sacrifice your own team. I am saying crowd push and foul their last players for no reason. When they bitch some more write "sorry I CtC".
Comments
Posted by CircularLogic on 2010-03-10 23:06:11
You start crippling, when the match is won, then I start crippling your team when I have the chance to do so while winning. Complaining or not.
Thank you for your cooperation, and [B] orcs meat your team soon.
Thank you for your cooperation, and [B] orcs meat your team soon.
Posted by Resarf on 2010-03-11 00:57:01
That's rather my point. It's bad form to cripple when the game is essentially over, just as it's bad form to complain.
Posted by Kelkka on 2010-03-11 03:44:35
Try ignoring the whines a little. Close the chat window, be happy about the win. It's not so serious if your opponent, who already has been beaten, let's off a little steam.
Or is that how you act in real life as well? Shoot to kill if somebody says he had a bad day?
Or is that how you act in real life as well? Shoot to kill if somebody says he had a bad day?
Posted by Resarf on 2010-03-11 04:44:02
This again speaks directly to what I am saying. Do you take a late foul in blood bowl as seriously as a gun in real life? To elaborate "[i]t's not so serious if your opponent, who already has been beaten, let's off a little steam" and then gets whooped harder for acting like a jerk.
What people say or type is real life, that mask they adopt is who they really are at that moment. When someone says you were "just lucky" they are attempting to bring you down in order to bring themselves up or they're just dumping on the universe in general.
Those who whine can be made aware of the fact that they are choosing the identity of sad sack of crap (to think otherwise is to give them no credit at all - and with this I lay claim to the optimistic high ground).
Ignoring the whines is another perfectly valid response. It handily avoids the problem. Most of the time it is the best in game choice. But is it as fun or educational as CtC? Don't you wish that whining would cease altogether? Work towards utopia people. Cripple the Complainers.
What people say or type is real life, that mask they adopt is who they really are at that moment. When someone says you were "just lucky" they are attempting to bring you down in order to bring themselves up or they're just dumping on the universe in general.
Those who whine can be made aware of the fact that they are choosing the identity of sad sack of crap (to think otherwise is to give them no credit at all - and with this I lay claim to the optimistic high ground).
Ignoring the whines is another perfectly valid response. It handily avoids the problem. Most of the time it is the best in game choice. But is it as fun or educational as CtC? Don't you wish that whining would cease altogether? Work towards utopia people. Cripple the Complainers.
Posted by CircularLogic on 2010-03-11 09:19:56
Two wrongs don`t make a right (though 3 lefts do).
If you are annoyed by people complaining about the dice (which is a natural implulse), it costs you one click to ignore them completely.
Rebuilding a team might cost them many hours of their life. So even if you are clumsy and slow and it takes you 12 seconds locate and click that 'close chat window' button, you can ignore 300 whiners before they have cost you the equivalent of one recovery match extra that takes 1 hour.
So as you think teamcrippling is a suitable form of education, I will gladly apply it if you lose the match - and be warned: I will complain that you forced my hand while doing so.
If you are annoyed by people complaining about the dice (which is a natural implulse), it costs you one click to ignore them completely.
Rebuilding a team might cost them many hours of their life. So even if you are clumsy and slow and it takes you 12 seconds locate and click that 'close chat window' button, you can ignore 300 whiners before they have cost you the equivalent of one recovery match extra that takes 1 hour.
So as you think teamcrippling is a suitable form of education, I will gladly apply it if you lose the match - and be warned: I will complain that you forced my hand while doing so.
Posted by DonTomaso on 2010-03-11 10:29:27
An even better way is simply to ask: "Do you want some fish/cheese/fruit with that whine?"
That stopped me.... :)
That stopped me.... :)
Posted by Resarf on 2010-03-11 13:20:27
@Circular: First things first, if you resent playing bloodbowl, be it whilst team rebuilding or otherwise, the game has moved beyond being a hobby.
In any society there are a large number of "natural impulses" that we resist, resisting them is a prerequisite of being part of civilization.
You seem angry, which I do not understand. I have not said anything in specific about you, nor ever played or spectated a match of yours.
The argument that 2 wrongs do not make a right is specious for 2 reasons:
1: Anything the client allows is allowed, it cannot be wrong to do anything allowed in game.
2: I have committed 0 wrongs against you and you are repeatedly threatening (albeit with something that anyone with a healthy mind could not care less about). Of course quid pro quo is fair play (see point 1). On the other hand to avoid the game theory nightmare (assuming you dream of bloodbowl) of mutual destruction why don't people just not be jerks?
Now to soften up, because I don't want to come across as all righteous. I myself occasionally feel a tweak of regret, a hint of anger and have emotions that don't match with the general enjoyment I gain from this game. Before complaining I say this to myself: A bad day of bloodbowl beats a good day of most other things (and my wife is often at work when I am online so bloodbowl is pretty much the best I am gonna get).
@Don: yes talking first is good. Anything that makes the poor delusional (weighting events disproportionately= delusional) person snap out of their assholery is good.
CAVEAT
I am not including anyone who notes a bad streak of luck in the category of complainer. There is always a personal line.
In any society there are a large number of "natural impulses" that we resist, resisting them is a prerequisite of being part of civilization.
You seem angry, which I do not understand. I have not said anything in specific about you, nor ever played or spectated a match of yours.
The argument that 2 wrongs do not make a right is specious for 2 reasons:
1: Anything the client allows is allowed, it cannot be wrong to do anything allowed in game.
2: I have committed 0 wrongs against you and you are repeatedly threatening (albeit with something that anyone with a healthy mind could not care less about). Of course quid pro quo is fair play (see point 1). On the other hand to avoid the game theory nightmare (assuming you dream of bloodbowl) of mutual destruction why don't people just not be jerks?
Now to soften up, because I don't want to come across as all righteous. I myself occasionally feel a tweak of regret, a hint of anger and have emotions that don't match with the general enjoyment I gain from this game. Before complaining I say this to myself: A bad day of bloodbowl beats a good day of most other things (and my wife is often at work when I am online so bloodbowl is pretty much the best I am gonna get).
@Don: yes talking first is good. Anything that makes the poor delusional (weighting events disproportionately= delusional) person snap out of their assholery is good.
CAVEAT
I am not including anyone who notes a bad streak of luck in the category of complainer. There is always a personal line.
Posted by f_alk on 2010-03-11 14:17:41
It's fun to see that Circ chooses to apply the punishment before the crime, and that he will punish a crime more than once!
Resarf said he will cripple you after you complained. At first Circ also said that he "then" will cripple Resarf "when he has the chance" (which is more than one). Later Circ went that he will cripple Resarf if Resarf is losing. Now, while Resarf made clear he would only punish complaints, Circ will punish losing to him - implicitly even if Resarf laughs at his dice or takes it like a man.
Btw, that same Circ wondered and bitterly complained when he was booed against.
Resarf said he will cripple you after you complained. At first Circ also said that he "then" will cripple Resarf "when he has the chance" (which is more than one). Later Circ went that he will cripple Resarf if Resarf is losing. Now, while Resarf made clear he would only punish complaints, Circ will punish losing to him - implicitly even if Resarf laughs at his dice or takes it like a man.
Btw, that same Circ wondered and bitterly complained when he was booed against.
Posted by CircularLogic on 2010-03-11 16:22:34
On the contrary to Resarf, I do not apply the crime and punishment principle. I rather try to mirror my opponent, because that is usually a good thing in a community.
By standard, I try to go as soft as possible on my opponent as soon as the game is decided. That isn`t because I think recovery/building isn`t fun. But when faced with the choice between a game where their starplayer died to a meaningless T15 foul when score is 3-0 or the same match where none of their players died, who would pick the outcome where they lost their star?
Now if you somehow voice, that you either a) like getting players killed or b) strive to maximize damage as soon as you have either lost or won the match, I will change my gameplay towards maximized damage. In case of a), this is to increase the fun for my opponent and in case of b) to give them their own medicine.
You choose to educate your opponents towards less whining, then you should be fine, if I will try to educate you towards winning more often.
@f_alk:
Resarf never limited his 'cripple other teams intentionally' to one game, so why should I? I also always added, that I will only maximize damage, when I`m winning (so if he is losing). As explained above, the reason for 'punishment' is of course different from his reasons, because I disagree with his approach.
And yes, I know, that I get alot of boos and go on tilt from time to time. I am also working on it (with moderate success, judging by the nice chat I had during a game against one of the main boo-ers). This has to do with this issue how?
By standard, I try to go as soft as possible on my opponent as soon as the game is decided. That isn`t because I think recovery/building isn`t fun. But when faced with the choice between a game where their starplayer died to a meaningless T15 foul when score is 3-0 or the same match where none of their players died, who would pick the outcome where they lost their star?
Now if you somehow voice, that you either a) like getting players killed or b) strive to maximize damage as soon as you have either lost or won the match, I will change my gameplay towards maximized damage. In case of a), this is to increase the fun for my opponent and in case of b) to give them their own medicine.
You choose to educate your opponents towards less whining, then you should be fine, if I will try to educate you towards winning more often.
@f_alk:
Resarf never limited his 'cripple other teams intentionally' to one game, so why should I? I also always added, that I will only maximize damage, when I`m winning (so if he is losing). As explained above, the reason for 'punishment' is of course different from his reasons, because I disagree with his approach.
And yes, I know, that I get alot of boos and go on tilt from time to time. I am also working on it (with moderate success, judging by the nice chat I had during a game against one of the main boo-ers). This has to do with this issue how?
Posted by Resarf on 2010-03-11 17:03:25
Circ I think we are closer in principles here than it would first appear:
#1 I too go softly (very obvious with examination of either my games or profile), also I understand that for both teams this is the best overall strategy.
#2 From reading some of your blog I think we feel the same about bashy teams with coaches who have mean streaks.
In a sense I am lumping in complaining with playing a pointlessly harm motivated style. Both communicate that mean streak which I have mentioned above. Both should be met with the reply that such behavior is uncool. Whiners tend not to take the lesson from being whined back at, I offer CtC as another means.
I thought it implicit that the crippling be limited to the game at hand, otherwise what's the lesson? If people can't change then indeed my strategy is just as pointless and cruel as complaining.
In a recent blog you mention being booed and fouled in turn 16, but that you deserved it (even if your opponent was also acting poorly). I assume then that these feedback helped initiate the examination of your own motives/mental state.
As to education towards winning more often I am always game (gods know I need it;)) and I will always thank my opponent for just that privilege, just as I thank them for the game if I win.
Unless of course they are acting like a jerk.
#1 I too go softly (very obvious with examination of either my games or profile), also I understand that for both teams this is the best overall strategy.
#2 From reading some of your blog I think we feel the same about bashy teams with coaches who have mean streaks.
In a sense I am lumping in complaining with playing a pointlessly harm motivated style. Both communicate that mean streak which I have mentioned above. Both should be met with the reply that such behavior is uncool. Whiners tend not to take the lesson from being whined back at, I offer CtC as another means.
I thought it implicit that the crippling be limited to the game at hand, otherwise what's the lesson? If people can't change then indeed my strategy is just as pointless and cruel as complaining.
In a recent blog you mention being booed and fouled in turn 16, but that you deserved it (even if your opponent was also acting poorly). I assume then that these feedback helped initiate the examination of your own motives/mental state.
As to education towards winning more often I am always game (gods know I need it;)) and I will always thank my opponent for just that privilege, just as I thank them for the game if I win.
Unless of course they are acting like a jerk.
Posted by Resarf on 2010-03-11 17:05:46
LOL logic error needing explaining. Harm oriented coaches respond to neither whining nor crippling, I don't have a solution for that one (maybe more emphasis on winning?) but I personally doubt that whining will work.
Posted by CircularLogic on 2010-03-11 17:50:38
You say it yourself: "If people can't change then indeed my strategy is just as pointless and cruel as complaining."
So you expect coaches that whine due to casualties to stop whining due to more casualties? It just makes no sense.
That`s why it reads a lot like they annoy me so I play like a jerk. Which in turn leads to me putting you on the list of coaches who to give max pain if the match allows.
So you expect coaches that whine due to casualties to stop whining due to more casualties? It just makes no sense.
That`s why it reads a lot like they annoy me so I play like a jerk. Which in turn leads to me putting you on the list of coaches who to give max pain if the match allows.
Posted by Resarf on 2010-03-11 18:27:04
Yes, if they associate whining with casualties and they do not want casualties they will stop whining.
This assumes all sorts of positive things, like people being reflective and capable of learning. Other than that though pretty straight forward.
This assumes all sorts of positive things, like people being reflective and capable of learning. Other than that though pretty straight forward.
Posted by CircularLogic on 2010-03-11 18:53:32
Conditioning only works reasonably well if the event/cause relationship is really clear. In the cases you are trying it, random team trashing is already explained by 'my opponent is a jerk'. So first you would have to remove that reasoning, before you can implement the chain of thought "I suffer cas because I whine".
And no.. telling them that you are fouling T16 because they whined doesn`t cut it, as it just sounds like a lame excuse and you still look like a jerk to them.
And no.. telling them that you are fouling T16 because they whined doesn`t cut it, as it just sounds like a lame excuse and you still look like a jerk to them.
Posted by Resarf on 2010-03-11 19:07:01
You have an excellent point here and I agree entirely that the it will not work if perceived as random team trashing. Thus the need for repeatedly reinforcing the association. As noted below: given a plethora of feedback you caught on.
I like to think that if over the course of 4 games I am told three times that "you are whining and being slaughtered because of it" that I will learn from that. This may unfortunately be necessary because as a whiner I likely have no compunctions about sharing my pain or damaging others, but even my egotistical cad of a self can understand that my ego (ergo my little men) will take a hit if I do not desist in this behaviour.
Essentially it ought to work best with smart jerks.
Though again you have a good point about how this could look to one of these people, there's a phrase about this somewhere... something about the whole world being black.
I like to think that if over the course of 4 games I am told three times that "you are whining and being slaughtered because of it" that I will learn from that. This may unfortunately be necessary because as a whiner I likely have no compunctions about sharing my pain or damaging others, but even my egotistical cad of a self can understand that my ego (ergo my little men) will take a hit if I do not desist in this behaviour.
Essentially it ought to work best with smart jerks.
Though again you have a good point about how this could look to one of these people, there's a phrase about this somewhere... something about the whole world being black.
Posted by Resarf on 2010-03-11 21:35:55
Not that anyone is reading this (dudebro has a higher rating!) but I could not follow through... had opportunity and chose not to. Why? Dunno, maybe I hope the uncrippled team brings a bit of joy to in the sad lives of people who can be miserable playing a game. Probably though my pessimistic side won out: some people aren't worth communicating with.
Posted by f_alk on 2010-03-12 13:22:10
And I think it is clear that you play to win and not to make your opponent whine and complain. While Circ plays to win - leading his analogy into absurdness.
Posted by Timlagor on 2010-04-24 01:14:57
Congratulations on not 'following through' Resarf, it was a silly idea.
Posted by Resarf on 2010-04-24 14:25:42
Plenty more where that came from :)