koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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 Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 14:31 |
 
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| Hitonagashi wrote: |
If you do combine the divisions though, what do you do about the majors? The scheduler will logically be a place of "well, got no MNG's, so I guess I'll activate TunedTeam". I think what keeps quite a few people in it is that for every time you draw a highly tuned kill all menz team, you also draw one of their previous victims with a million MNGs. |
Is that still true for long lived teams after the fix?
I'm seeing a lot of 'not enough teams' or 4 team draws. I would have thought that the chances of drawing a big killer have increased for your older teams.
| Roland wrote: | | koadah wrote: | Well, unless you count those people who hate the Box and hate the idea of Box teams coming to Ranked.  |
Well B teams have to adjust if they want to find games in the gamefinder anyway... |
The bashers wouldn't need to use the gamefinder. My hope is that people/teams that don't want to be 'pure' box would at least drop in from time to time. Making it better for everyone.
There was a lot of talk about 'pure' Box teams in LRB4 days. Do people still care about that?
I probably did, but don't now. |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 14:35 |
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I don't know what I think about all of this, but I haven't posted in awhile.
Post!  |
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OenarLod
Joined: Jan 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 14:50 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | ...But we’re so far down the Box road now, I find it hard to see a way of condensing the two into one without putting some noses seriously out of joint. That’s a much trickier road than fixing perceived problems with an updated version of TS or a scheduler tweak or two. We see every time this thread is bumped people are pretty emotive. |
Maybe I'm biased due to my Vault Tec Squad, but not allowing a merge would lead to loosing a lot of long lived and fluffy teams...  |
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BillBrasky
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 14:58 |
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I am pretty certain we'll just continue to have the 2 divisions.
Pretty much anything can be done in League. But again, this is off topic.
As for improving the Box, I think we should make thoughtful teams, and enjoy more conversation, rather than forcing some rule change. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Mar 28, 2014 - 15:27 |
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Heh, heh. What I would really, really like would be the return of the "transfer to league" button. But I suppose you all know that.
I suspect that I will want it even more when the League upgrades have been implemented.
I suppose Box will continue as long as it is doing 'enough' games.
It will be sad if people are just hoping that Box will die just so that they can get their teams freed up. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 15:55 |
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| BillBrasky wrote: | I am pretty certain we'll just continue to have the 2 divisions.
Pretty much anything can be done in League. But again, this is off topic.
As for improving the Box, I think we should make thoughtful teams, and enjoy more conversation, rather than forcing some rule change. |
When you retire WMD I'll take this seriously.
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 18:42 |
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So I counted some things. Of the 250 teams that make up this two month Black Box Sprint, I broke it down as follows. The data are the number of teams that fall into each category.
| Code: | Team Average TV: 160+ 170+ 180+
Chaos and Nurgle: 49 29 14
Other Claw (CP/Nec/CD): 33 16 9
Other (EVERYONE else): 62 28 10
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Notes:
* This is meant to look at one column at a time, as I included all the teams that were 170+ in the 160+ group and so on. For example, a team with an average TV of 188.2 gets included in all three categories.
* Games played or record doesn't factor in, it's just the teams showing up in the top 250 list linked above.
* I put Skaven as an "other" team as there were very few. I checked the biggest and it didn't even have any claws. I don't think it makes much difference to the numbers in any case.
So I counted this up because posting my own record with my frogs (who try hard to build up but are barely in the 160+ column) and I could tell you they play some percentage of chaos and nurgle that is way to high. We could all point to records and show something similar, but look: Everyone is playing against "too much" Chaos and Nurgle and the "resting" games are against khemri or Chaos Dwarves, or Undead or Necro, or maybe if your lucky some dark elves. This stuff is so stacked as to be silly at the higher TV ranges.
The entire point of this thread, as I read it, is to determine what if anything should be done about de clawpomb. Is the status quo even remotely an option (See: table above)? There are lots of things that *could* be done. Why not try something we can already have the client do before moving on to any more extreme measures? This is what is proposed in the original post. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 18:48 |
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Personally i think this thread should be temporarily locked. considering - there is a new client release coming soon with a number of BIG changes, plus Christer has intimated there will be BIG league changes in the future and that this is taking most of his free time. I think it is very safe to assume attention of the important 2 people are well and truly placed elsewhere at the moment. A lock of the thread would put an end to this thread for the time being and everyone will know that there are no changes coming to box soon.
Then in a year or two it can be unlocked if thats what the powers that be want to discuss again.
Just my 2 cents. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 18:56 |
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The problem is still one of over all diversity, not really one of the power of cpomb.
Unless you're talking about the power of cpomb to kill diversity because it's so easy and lazy to do.
Yet the 'easy' solution still is not to change the rules, it's to force diversity in the box.
A lot of people don't like that idea for bad reasons, still, there's nothing stopping anyone who agrees on some level to correct this themselves.
Make 3+ teams with different play styles, skill access and activate them all every time you activate it. I've done that, though in perhaps the cheesiest way possible from Grues point of view, yet if everyone did this it would address the overriding issue of lack of diversity.
If you don't want to do this, then don't complain about diversity ever. |
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SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 19:01 |
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I always put all my 24 races in the box. You guys could do the same. I also write 'bblast' to #fumbblblackbox when I activate to make others know about that. I urge you to do the same. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 19:04 |
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| licker wrote: |
Unless you're talking about the power of cpomb to kill diversity because it's so easy and lazy to do.
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That is exactly what I'm talking about.
And yes I call cheese on your solution. Is adding all three of your popular box teams (DE, CD and Necro) together rather than activating one at a time somehow better than activating my 1780 TV frogs solo like I just did? Great, we may as well consider the box diversity problem solved! Excuse me, I have some teams to go create.  |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 19:12 |
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If the goal is to get more varied races into the mix then my solution is better than activating them one at a time (it also helps create more possible draws unless all your teams are around the same TV).
Box is not going to be what you want it to be ever, so how can you make it something better than what it is now?
Maybe you don't think you can, but for me, Box should be populated with a wider mix of races than it is (and yes, my 3 teams are not ideal for this at the moment). The only way to do this is to get more people playing more teams.
Of course no one is going to complain about you only playing slann, or someone only playing stunties. None the less, if you want to see diversity, but are unwilling to contribute to adding diversity, then, indeed, don't complain about it.
Now, you can complain about cpomb for all the reasons we understand that cpomb is a problem, but, if we assume that no rules changes are going to happen, then what are you left with in terms of making the box less cpomby?
My solution is simple, and requires no outside effort from admins or coders or anything else. Of course you could add some of that to make it completely rigorous, but at this point I'm with Garion, we don't need Christer et. al. to spend any time tweaking the box, we as a community need to simply agree to a new standard for using it.
If you've got another standard you'd like to see by all means, detail it. |
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pizzamogul
Joined: Jun 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 19:21 |
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| koadah wrote: | | I'm seeing a lot of 'not enough teams' or 4 team draws. I would have thought that the chances of drawing a big killer have increased for your older teams. |
If you look at the stats for the last 30 months, the noticeable downward slope to the box matches is a bit concerning. What the heck happened in July 2013? Hey, it's even more pronounced since the scheduler change! Is "minmax" therapy killing the patient??? |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 19:26 |
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FOURTY_TWO pages, and nothing on. |
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SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2014 - 19:28 |
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I like human counters. |
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