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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 20:35
FUMBBL Staff
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An easy one, the fail maths of brawler:

36 2D outcomes.
4 are fail states for blockless players.
3 have at least one both down.
Rerolling a both down has a 2/3rds success chance. Effectively removing 2 of the 3 outcomes.
So brawler turns the 1 in 9 fail into a 1 in 18.

Half as likely. Not bad.

The tricky aspect of evaluating it is in positive rerolls.

Of the 36 dice outcomes of a 2 die block, 11 include a both down.
3 of these are fail states discussed above. Both downs or both down and skull.
2 of them have pows to choose already.

2 of them have pow! to choose.

4 have pushes.

Assuming you reroll the 4 pushes, its a 1/3 success rate. 1/3 of 4/36 is 1/27.
But thats only pows that were pushes.

Annoyingly for the maths it also needs to include the 1/3 of the three fail states we would brawler reroll.
So extra pows is 1/3 of 7/36 which 7/108.

so a 6.5% Increase in pows.

Worse if they have dodge.


Brawler is a 'nice to have free' skill.
you'd never pick it.

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Last edited by PurpleChest on Aug 17, 2020 - 23:11; edited 1 time in total
sebco



Joined: Feb 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 21:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting maths, thanks.

That said, i don't completely agree with conclusion. I think players with General skills access won't pick it (as Block is better). Some with Strength but not General skills access could. And, in my opinion, those abble to roll a lots of 3d will (particularly when they often block and don't often blitz).

For example, I think I will take it on treemen.

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ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 21:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Ogres in an Ogre team are given it in the new rules right? It would be a decent skill to give an Ogre (or Troll) in any other team because it doesn't attract a Loner roll.

You would make the big guys 50% more reliable as per your maths in a fail state and would gain an incremental benefit when you roll push/both down as you search for the freebie Pow. No loner required.
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 22:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Ogres don't get Brawler by default. The only ones I've seen that start with it are Black Orcs

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Muff2n



Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 22:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, it works much better when you do not have block. But the effect for a single player is so minimal that you would never take it, even on one that cannot access block.

Where it will matter is on the BO team, though only because the benefits are multiplied by 6. They will appreciate the reduced turnovers and it this might help BOs go guard first. I think it is quite a nice design addition for this purpose only - a bit of a help to a block-less team.
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2020 - 23:16 Reply with quote Back to top

So you're saying the new ruleset and all it encompasses sucks? Who knew?
Uedder



Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Aug 15, 2020 - 00:47 Reply with quote Back to top

it's a nice skill to pick out of random S access.

Plenty of these suboptimal skills both in CRP and in the new rules. Not everything can be block or guard.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 15, 2020 - 05:23 Reply with quote Back to top

What about for 1 dice blocks, or 2 dice uphill blocks? Does Brawler significantly de-risk these actions on a block-less player?

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ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 15, 2020 - 05:59 Reply with quote Back to top

MrCushtie wrote:
Ogres don't get Brawler by default. The only ones I've seen that start with it are Black Orcs


Ah ok. I recall seeing the definition of Brawler in the Ogre Spike and hence thought it was standard.

But even so, a free dice reroll without Loner is a great advantage. Wouldn't take it on a regular non block player like a human lineman though.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2020 - 16:57 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think 6-7% is an insignificant change and it also just consider the use of two dice.

Brawl actually make the single die more viable and two dice against without block significantly more safe.

Brawl as a selected skill will probably only be taken on Big Guys but gaining Brawl as a random skill is not directly terrible to be honest.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2020 - 17:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Muff2n wrote:
Yes, it works much better when you do not have block. But the effect for a single player is so minimal that you would never take it, even on one that cannot access block.


The risk of blocking with a Big Guy is 50% less and a small increase in the chance to actually get the opponent down, this is not insignificant at all in my opinion.

Especially when you need to make a chance one die roll, the risks of a turn over are even better as well as the chance to knock down the opponent.

The good thing with BB2020 is that skills don't need to be equally strong anymore due to how skill progression works. This is a pretty good change.
Muff2n



Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2020 - 17:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Well in BB20 you can pick doubles. So I was presuming that rather than choosing brawl for your [S] access only player, you'd be better served getting block if you wanted more reliable hitting. As PC states, brawler is taking you from a 1/9 fail to 1/18. But you could pay (double) for the double and get it down to 1/36 and have block, which works defensively too. Also I presume that you can't use a team re-roll on brawler. But ok, maybe I was a bit too strong and could see it 3rd or later choice on a mummy.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2020 - 18:43 Reply with quote Back to top

It's a nice random skill to roll, for a smidge in TV. It also helps loner big guys not to mess up an entire turn.

It also helps one turn attempts. Not the crucial first blitz, but the next few hits. I could see people taking it.
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2020 - 21:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Could we start with what BRAWL does, exactly?

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snorkelwanted



Joined: Jun 04, 2019

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2020 - 21:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Brawler (may possibly depending on the final rules!) allow you to reroll a single dice showing a both down result from the pool of rolled block dice. Cannot be used on a blitz.
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