81 coaches online • Server time: 15:07
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post D8s for Agility Test...goto Post BB2020 and further r...goto Post NCBB TV
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Poll
Will bb2020 changes make you retire from fumbbl?
Never, fumbbl 4eva!
75%
 75%  [ 275 ]
Completely retire
1%
 1%  [ 6 ]
Retire except still do league
8%
 8%  [ 30 ]
Retire except still do some tournaments
0%
 0%  [ 2 ]
Undecided
14%
 14%  [ 52 ]
Total Votes : 365


Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 07:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Blodgestep? How many of those can you even have before the end of the season? and how many can you afford to keep? Not many if you want anything else.

And I wasn't talking about Leap specifically.. but rather opportunistic defense.. you might get the ball loose, but the odds of getting it and getting it to safety are pretty slim now that you can't reliably pass the ball out with anyone but your slow throwers!
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 08:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Craftnburn wrote:
And I still don't understand how Elves are supposed to play defense...other than mass dodge back 1 square and pray your armor holds up?

Same way they play defence now, either get the ball to go somewhere you can steal it and run off (like, a deep kick), or don't let the other team over the half way line (not everything can just steamroll you when you decide which guys to fight), or let them through then force the early score with various threats (and yes, sometimes carrying out those threats).

And yeah, some days you have four gumbis left vs a tight guard cage and elves are still better at that than any other team.

Try playing Goblins on defence for a couple hundred games, man, Elf teams are easy, especally with a guaranteed MB guy to work on numbers.

_________________
ImageImage
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 08:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Well I mean, pro elves have blodgestep x2 in 2 skills, HE have it in 2x skills on blitzers, DE.. You're still elves, you're still ag4 and can target SPP more easily than any other race via TDs since anyone can carry or receive a handover on 2+. It's not particularly hard to get skills on the team over 15 games and realistically, any player getting a skill is good as well.

I've played a lot of games where turning over doesn't necessarily mean scrambling the ball away immediately that turn. It's often something that is developed over several turns.

_________________
Image
Medon



Joined: Jan 28, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 08:56 Reply with quote Back to top

AV7 elves are much stronger on lower TV in my own experience... less tackle mighty blow to face. So I consider the new rules a buff to pro and even to wood elves notwithstanding the leap nerf Smile
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 09:28 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Break tackle has been nerfed? Yes, it has. Cage diving with a break tackle high ST player was honestly quite the rarity anyway, I'm not sure it's entirely relevant at all to complain about this in that situation.


Fair, but the nerf also removes reliable 2+ Dodges from Bull Centaurs and Sauri (who will survive) as well as Fling Trees and Tomb Guardians, so this change is really a big Fling and Khemri nerf and at this point I wonder, did the designers even consider it as such?
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 10:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:

Fair, but the nerf also removes reliable 2+ Dodges from Bull Centaurs and Sauri (who will survive) as well as Fling Trees and Tomb Guardians, so this change is really a big Fling and Khemri nerf and at this point I wonder, did the designers even consider it as such?


In terms of Khemri and Liz I personally prefer the G/SF route on early skills and so would not have invested heavily in BT even without a change in its mechanism anyway. For Khemri did use it skill 2 on 1/4 TGs but wouldn't feel too bad using it at 3+ if I had to, and even the 55% dodge with RR seems fine there too if it must be done.

But I mean, that's personal preference.

On Bull Centaurs it's absolutely a big change in CDorf play for most and will require some getting used to. Although I know there's quite a lot of people who like block-guard on the bulls as first two skills. It does at a glance weaken the team vs elves as traditionally, even though you have 6 dwarves, the bulls are chasing down the higher movement pieces.

What I will say is that a lot of the changes seem to point more to playing considered turns, careful planning and positioning being of upmost importance - and making skills like break tackle (frequently used as "get out of jail" cards on pieces like Saurus or Bull Centaurs) a much less sure thing would fall in line with that.

Now where that all falls into line with flings, I don't know. I'm kind of hesitant on that because while I think BT on khemri is something i can easily live without, on halflings it really was something that was relied on to stop a drive being bogged down, or a tree left irrelevant. Perhaps at 3+ it is still good enough for that, or perhaps flings are simply expected to be lining up with 3 Trees (deeproot) and playing the sort of grinding drives where being trapped on a tree is deadly. Who knows. I do know I think "just position better" probably isn't an answer I would give to a fling coach, although it'd tempt me to the rest.

_________________
Image
cdassak



Joined: Oct 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 13:04 Reply with quote Back to top

BT nerfing will have a minimal effect on Khemri and only minor on Lizzards. That's taking into account that there won't be any mega-teams. For both races BT came rather late in their skill path.

It's a major blow for Chorfs and a huge one for Ogres.

_________________
Image
Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 13:10 Reply with quote Back to top

cdassak wrote:
BT nerfing will have a minimal effect on Khemri and only minor on Lizzards. That's taking into account that there won't be any mega-teams. For both races BT came rather late in their skill path.

It's a major blow for Chorfs and a huge one for Ogres.


It still works for ogres as it gives them the +2 to their Agility which is a 4+ already, so they can still dodge like it's a merry time.
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 13:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I foresee the comeback of Zons and Dorfs teams: dirty cheap and loaded from the beginning.
Maybe... maybe even Norse!

_________________
"la virtú sta nel cielo e nella terra, ma anche nelle nuvole e nelle stelle"

Image
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 14:02 Reply with quote Back to top

If Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs will be very common, I don't think playing Amazons will be appealing.
extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 15:18 Reply with quote Back to top

2 cents on the ruleset. Altho not being able to pass with all 11 woodies is restrictive in general I LIKE the concept of passing becoming specialist. This finally makes the position of QB/de facto captain a real thing on the board. In the past throwers have been written about as team leaders but without dump off tend to make 1 throw and then hang around trying not to get hit/reinforce the rear of a screen.

Now each team needs a thrower that can hold/rush/pass the ball according to need. Just like an NFL QB. And different races will have different styles.


Last edited by extremegrazedknee on Jan 19, 2021 - 15:36; edited 1 time in total
extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 15:22 Reply with quote Back to top

It also seems to me that the ruleset either makes it a lot more difficult or places a premium on building entire teams of blodj or GD/SF players. I may be wrong there but thats what it seemed like.

This has got to be good in terms of increasing the incidence of strategy on the board. I hope that those skills that can still easily and inexpensively applied team wide are less tilting than the above mentioned options.

Of course if you want your team of tackle mighty blow/blojss you can do it, but you will give away inducements to do it i.e. extra apos etc. I like this theory.
extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 15:36 Reply with quote Back to top

As someone whose first love is elves the passing adjustments will have a big impact. I don't have the knowledge to say whether the dodge/bash equilibrium has gone in 1 direction or the other. Iron skin is good, lots of SIs bad.

My main comment is that the 'Collectors' approach to blood bowl is rendered pretty ineffective by the new rules. And I think thats a positive. Team building taking a hit in favour of on the board play.

Personally I like to play AV7 (or 8+ as it is to become). When I joined Fumbbl I coached a lot of elves scored a lot of tds and lost team after team after team. Being stubborn I altered my approach to include a lot of team building as with a wall of bloj and ss you can protect your specialists. Team building leads to conscious or subconscious cherry picking. Making it harder fro me to do that is a good thing. As long as it doesn't make any kind of team improvement a fantasy for AV 8+ teams due to cas I'm wholly in favour.

It seems to me that only the top 1% pf coaches can sustainably coach AV8+. If you are prepared to lose 30 games even an average strategist can beat a Cdorf or nurgle team that can destroy all the other coaches effort to do so. Making it harder to build killers will help and am happy to sacrifice some passing skill team wide to make that happen.

I think daring and outlandish strategies should be encouraged and stalling disincentivized. It makes playing the actual game more fun. So I'm excited to see the effect the new rules have on the game. I trust the game testers more than the sceptics who have only read the rules. As PC mentioned, no ruleset is immutable, this too shall pass...

(think that was more like 20 cents or even a dollar but whose really counting)
extremegrazedknee



Joined: Dec 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2021 - 15:42 Reply with quote Back to top

PS I get why the collectors on the site are really p'd off with paying to choose skills as it is a dramatic change as is the challenge/impossibility to build a thrower fro certain races.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2021 - 00:25 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath wrote:
I think I will play on with NAF tabletop seeing as they will be giving tournament organisers the option of playing with the old rules, and still running ranks with those too

I think Tabletop NAF tournament organizers sticking with the old rules in more than a few months time will be few and far between. People want to play with the new stuff, especially tabletop.

_________________
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic