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2015-02-26 18:57:17
16 votes, rating 4.2
16 votes, rating 4.2
Turnover Etiquette
Not naming names, but a RL friend of mine played some days ago his sixth game of the RTTNAFC.
He's pretty new to Fumbbl (and bb in general) but he's a fast learner and is enjoying the game (and this site) immensely.
Long story short, in his last game his opponent (who is a veteran of the site) forced a 4 min turnover twice during the game, without a word of warning and without commenting at all. I might add that my friend is not Woodstock fast, but not boring slow either. He's just a bit slow when things get difficult, but he stays under the 4 mins regularly on the vast majority of turns.
Now, my friend has a thick skin and is not easily offended, but I specced the game and found that behaviour extremely rude.
I mean, I was never fond of the 4 mins rule (and I never saw it strictly enforced in tabletop), but I can understand the reasons behind it: if your opponent is taking too long, and he's clearly thinking, he might ask you for a bit more time during the critical turn, but he's expected to play reasonably fast.
But online? who knows what's happening on the other side of the screen? There might be something as simple as a dog barking, a phone call, a daughter crying, someone at the door, the wife asking for help, or just the need to take a piss.
Of course you can enforce the 4 mins rule (it is in the site's rules for a reason), but at least be polite about it...
A simple "hey, I'm bit short on time here. Just wanted to inform you that once your turn reaches 4 mins, I'll turnover you. Consider yourself warned" would go a long way not to make you look like an asshat.
ps: it goes without saying that neither my friend nor his opponent were 5/0/0 or anywhere close to that... it was just a game with pretty much nothing at stake. Which doubles my opinion that it was a douchebag-ish thing to do.
He's pretty new to Fumbbl (and bb in general) but he's a fast learner and is enjoying the game (and this site) immensely.
Long story short, in his last game his opponent (who is a veteran of the site) forced a 4 min turnover twice during the game, without a word of warning and without commenting at all. I might add that my friend is not Woodstock fast, but not boring slow either. He's just a bit slow when things get difficult, but he stays under the 4 mins regularly on the vast majority of turns.
Now, my friend has a thick skin and is not easily offended, but I specced the game and found that behaviour extremely rude.
I mean, I was never fond of the 4 mins rule (and I never saw it strictly enforced in tabletop), but I can understand the reasons behind it: if your opponent is taking too long, and he's clearly thinking, he might ask you for a bit more time during the critical turn, but he's expected to play reasonably fast.
But online? who knows what's happening on the other side of the screen? There might be something as simple as a dog barking, a phone call, a daughter crying, someone at the door, the wife asking for help, or just the need to take a piss.
Of course you can enforce the 4 mins rule (it is in the site's rules for a reason), but at least be polite about it...
A simple "hey, I'm bit short on time here. Just wanted to inform you that once your turn reaches 4 mins, I'll turnover you. Consider yourself warned" would go a long way not to make you look like an asshat.
ps: it goes without saying that neither my friend nor his opponent were 5/0/0 or anywhere close to that... it was just a game with pretty much nothing at stake. Which doubles my opinion that it was a douchebag-ish thing to do.
Comments
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-02-26 18:59:04
Time out all menz!!!
Posted by Cavetroll on 2015-02-26 19:02:14
I see your point, but just to play devil's advocate: if someone has a real-life interruption, they can and should say something too. Communication works both ways.
Posted by happygrue on 2015-02-26 19:02:51
...and some of us have quite a long way to go in that regard...
Posted by JanMattys on 2015-02-26 19:06:00
Cavetroll, I completely agree. And btw, if something really important happens in RL, you just close the game and deal with the interruption first, of course. It is just a game.
In this case I'm not even sure it was an interruption, btw. It could well be that my friend was just a bit slow. But the opponent had no means to know, and just forcing a turnover at 4:01 without even a word or a "hello?" is bad in my book. You really want to win THAT much?
In this case I'm not even sure it was an interruption, btw. It could well be that my friend was just a bit slow. But the opponent had no means to know, and just forcing a turnover at 4:01 without even a word or a "hello?" is bad in my book. You really want to win THAT much?
Posted by NerdBird on 2015-02-26 19:10:36
In our TT league we always used the 4 minute rule and on TT a turn does take longer. We had many timers that would beep for the last 10 seconds. You could finish whatever turn you had started but we did enforce it. And actually it was rarely an issue.
However, on here etiquette is to alert someone you may time them out if it so happens that they go over 4 minutes again. But, if the opponent told me they had reasoning I may allow them to take a bit longer if I had the time. If not, especially in a tournament I would time them out because there is really no reason a turn on FUMBBL should take longer than 4 minutes under normal circumstances.
However, on here etiquette is to alert someone you may time them out if it so happens that they go over 4 minutes again. But, if the opponent told me they had reasoning I may allow them to take a bit longer if I had the time. If not, especially in a tournament I would time them out because there is really no reason a turn on FUMBBL should take longer than 4 minutes under normal circumstances.
Posted by fidius on 2015-02-26 19:11:18
I've only been timed out maybe twice here, but will always remember who did the first one -- a vet of the site. Situation was similar, ie no warning -- and it was of tactical value for him to do so, naturally. I avoid playing him to this day. Maybe it's irrational, but he's in my asshat book regardless.
Posted by arry on 2015-02-26 19:11:27
I was playing a game against a slow and silent coach the other day, and it was frustrating to no end. He took a minute to start every turn, and said nothing beyond the start-game `gl'. Must have been a hard game for him, with a dog barking, wife calling and needing to take a piss all the time.
Posted by Cavetroll on 2015-02-26 19:26:09
@happygrue was that comment directed towards yourself?
Posted by MattDakka on 2015-02-26 19:38:31
Time out should be automatic like on Cyanide, no more whining and blaming that way.
Posted by Kam on 2015-02-26 19:39:26
This is a tournament. Don't expect people to go easy on you...
Posted by Purplegoo on 2015-02-26 19:47:27
I have nothing new to add to this debate, other than I found this disappointing.
Posted by akaRenton on 2015-02-26 19:50:45
If it wasn't a tournament I'd agree with Jan, but everything is automated for us unlike TT so it really shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes per turn on here and it is not unusual for people to time others out in tournaments. Think I've only timed out 3 times and 2 was when the other person had afk'd after moving all their players. But then I rarely play with time constraints on me, some do.
I wouldn't do it myself, but wouldn't protest if someone did it to me.
I wouldn't do it myself, but wouldn't protest if someone did it to me.
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2015-02-26 20:06:38
I was under the impression that the NAF tournament was being run with the NAF standard tournament rules, which mean't no time out after 4 minutes.
I can understand timing someone out in a normal Fumbbl Tournament, but the NAF tournament's primary objective is to promote Fumbbl and the NAF, so any time out is going to fly directly against that objective.
I can understand timing someone out in a normal Fumbbl Tournament, but the NAF tournament's primary objective is to promote Fumbbl and the NAF, so any time out is going to fly directly against that objective.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-02-26 20:25:50
I believe there is no specific rule in the rulespack against timing out.
There is no IP for not moving the turn marker but at east that is sorted on here.
There is no IP for not moving the turn marker but at east that is sorted on here.
Posted by Balle2000 on 2015-02-26 20:43:14
As long as there is timeout button, coaches will be hovering above it ready to pounce. Sadly - and this comes from a Hellfishes fan - there's nothing new in this blog.
Posted by PainState on 2015-02-26 20:50:41
IMO there is a very large difference when playing a ho hum pick up game in B or R. Who cares in those matches if coaches are timing each other out? The game ends and you just move on.
Tournament play is totally different beast. There should be a another level of respect shown in those matches. You would expect the same in that environment if the tables were turned.
Sure you could bluster up and pout like my 8 year old twin boys and declare, "Well the rules are the rules and that is how the spiked ball crumbles." Yet we all know you are pissed off that the other coach would just hit the time out button at the 4 minute mark. To justify why you would hit the time out button on the 4 minute mark is a defense.
It is true that the hard 4 minute limit is hard coded into the client. That does not mean though that you do not have a choice, it is not a auto turnover on the 4 minute mark. You have to press the button.
Tournament play is totally different beast. There should be a another level of respect shown in those matches. You would expect the same in that environment if the tables were turned.
Sure you could bluster up and pout like my 8 year old twin boys and declare, "Well the rules are the rules and that is how the spiked ball crumbles." Yet we all know you are pissed off that the other coach would just hit the time out button at the 4 minute mark. To justify why you would hit the time out button on the 4 minute mark is a defense.
It is true that the hard 4 minute limit is hard coded into the client. That does not mean though that you do not have a choice, it is not a auto turnover on the 4 minute mark. You have to press the button.
Posted by PainState on 2015-02-26 20:53:51
One could argue, which I will, that if the 4 minute limit is going to be enforced it is not enforced by the players.
The client auto turnovers if the 4 minute mark is reached. That way there is no more discussion of etiquette and do you hit the button or not.
All coaches then are on a level playing ground of the client will auto time you out if you go over 4 minutes (PERIOD).
The client auto turnovers if the 4 minute mark is reached. That way there is no more discussion of etiquette and do you hit the button or not.
All coaches then are on a level playing ground of the client will auto time you out if you go over 4 minutes (PERIOD).
Posted by JanMattys on 2015-02-26 21:06:09
What I found disappointing was the total lack of a warning, or a policy statement, or whatever else. Which I know is not due, but I also know would be expected by the vast majority of players here.
The opponent was in his right to force the turnover, but was also sort of a douche for doing it that way. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
The opponent was in his right to force the turnover, but was also sort of a douche for doing it that way. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
Posted by Dunenzed on 2015-02-26 21:45:35
Maybe we could get the button changed to have a second popup question that asks "Do you have a small penis". The operated can then answer yes or no, to proceed or cancel with the timeout.
Posted by Cavetroll on 2015-02-26 21:58:06
There's other popup menus we could put that question on....
Posted by Kam on 2015-02-26 22:00:43
Since when does someone who times out a slow coach, and I insist on the word slow: we're not talking about urgent RL matters here - has to apologize for enforcing the time limit, or justify the size of his penis?
You may find that inelegant, and you would probably be right, but isn't taking 4 mins to play every turn - if not more - again a reasonably fast opponent equally offensive, or at least irrespective?
I don't have a great win / loss ration overhaul, but it's disastrous against really slow players, for the sole reason I get bored I can't concentrate on the game: I check the forums, chat on IRC, grab some more beers... which gives a huge advantage to my opponent. Yet, if you wanna go that way, he's also disrespecting me by not playing faster and monopolizing 80% of the game time. And yet you don't see me whine on the forum...
You may find that inelegant, and you would probably be right, but isn't taking 4 mins to play every turn - if not more - again a reasonably fast opponent equally offensive, or at least irrespective?
I don't have a great win / loss ration overhaul, but it's disastrous against really slow players, for the sole reason I get bored I can't concentrate on the game: I check the forums, chat on IRC, grab some more beers... which gives a huge advantage to my opponent. Yet, if you wanna go that way, he's also disrespecting me by not playing faster and monopolizing 80% of the game time. And yet you don't see me whine on the forum...
Posted by SzieberthAdam on 2015-02-26 22:04:32
Some people want to win sooo badly!
Posted by JanMattys on 2015-02-26 22:08:43
Kam, I can assure you my friend was NOT taking 4 mnins per turn.
It was just a critical turn (7 fist half, 1-0 down and trying to figure out the eventual 1-1 tie.
It was just a move out of the blue. Legitimate, but bad to see.
It was just a critical turn (7 fist half, 1-0 down and trying to figure out the eventual 1-1 tie.
It was just a move out of the blue. Legitimate, but bad to see.
Posted by JanMattys on 2015-02-26 22:12:58
also, I wasn't whining, and sure as hell I am not whining on my friend's behalf.
I was just asking for opinions because it stroke me as weird and wrong (more the way he did it that the thing per se).
I was just asking for opinions because it stroke me as weird and wrong (more the way he did it that the thing per se).
Posted by nobbynobbs on 2015-02-26 22:24:23
I believe purplegoo stated at the start of the tournament that time out was NOT to be used.
Posted by Ebenezer on 2015-02-26 22:36:13
"I believe purplegoo stated at the start of the tournament that time out was NOT to be used."
Same here... like TT tournies... 2h and 15 for a full match, period.
Same here... like TT tournies... 2h and 15 for a full match, period.
Posted by fidius on 2015-02-26 22:39:17
A running cumulative timer for each coach might be useful, ie if a coach routinely takes 90 secs but then needs 4:35 for a complex turn he can point to the game clock as proof that he hasn't taken more than his share to that point. Either that or introduce a "timer mulligan" where you can elect to go over 4 mins once per match, at your discretion.
Posted by Dominik on 2015-02-26 22:53:42
It's pure douchery to force turn end without a warning a turn before. I care a blacklist for these people
In my opinion the four minute rule can remain but there should be a puffer installed, like a five minutes counter for emergencies or for real tricky turns. You can use up the 5 minutes counter in the very first turn and are then understandably forced to end your turn by your opponent in every subsequent turn, if you still go over four minutes everytime.
In my opinion the four minute rule can remain but there should be a puffer installed, like a five minutes counter for emergencies or for real tricky turns. You can use up the 5 minutes counter in the very first turn and are then understandably forced to end your turn by your opponent in every subsequent turn, if you still go over four minutes everytime.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-02-26 23:31:37
I hope I play you in a tournament and get to time you out 16 times Dominik
Posted by DUBitativ on 2015-02-27 00:40:48
One thing i learnt in fumbbl is the differents levels of competitiveness that you can find in this game. If you want to live a very rivalry game, try a CoS or WO.
Absolutly all NAF games i played were in TT tourneys, and they were played in a really friendly atmosphere, personally i am playing the first NAF online tournament with the same level of friendship. In my games, some of turns exceeded the 4 mins and i didn't think about timeover him.
Absolutly all NAF games i played were in TT tourneys, and they were played in a really friendly atmosphere, personally i am playing the first NAF online tournament with the same level of friendship. In my games, some of turns exceeded the 4 mins and i didn't think about timeover him.
Posted by happygrue on 2015-02-27 00:42:38
No Cavetroll, no it was not. I hadn't seen your comment yet. I was merely commenting on the then last line of the OP: "... would go a long way not to make you look like an asshat."
Some of us do indeed have much to do in that regard.
Some of us do indeed have much to do in that regard.
Posted by koadah on 2015-02-27 00:50:48
Some people will time you out.
Some people will time you out after a warning.
Some people will time you out the second time after giving you a warning the first time.
Some people will only time you out if you are really taking the p***.
Some people will never time you out.
It's the luck of the draw who will get.
Some people will time you out after a warning.
Some people will time you out the second time after giving you a warning the first time.
Some people will only time you out if you are really taking the p***.
Some people will never time you out.
It's the luck of the draw who will get.
Posted by Arktoris on 2015-02-27 02:34:04
this is what happens when the timeout button is for timing out an opponent, instead of it overriding an automatic timeout.
when my opponent falls down, I don't need to hit a "turnover for falling down" button
If my opponent drops the ball I don't need to hit a button to end his turn.
why is this turnover any different?
when my opponent falls down, I don't need to hit a "turnover for falling down" button
If my opponent drops the ball I don't need to hit a button to end his turn.
why is this turnover any different?
Posted by pythrr on 2015-02-27 02:47:51
it's a tournament game, all rules can be enforced.
still, having said that, it's a but douchey not to warn yr opponent, especially the first time.
still, having said that, it's a but douchey not to warn yr opponent, especially the first time.
Posted by Dominik on 2015-02-27 05:46:19
Jimmy Fantastic wrote:
"I hope I play you in a tournament and get to time you out 16 times Dominik"
Let me get this:
You dont like me at all so you never want to play a game in an open environment like in Ranked against me but you hate me so much that you beg to play me in a forced environement just to get the chance to time me out on every occassion possible?
There must be a word for this form of disorder.
"I hope I play you in a tournament and get to time you out 16 times Dominik"
Let me get this:
You dont like me at all so you never want to play a game in an open environment like in Ranked against me but you hate me so much that you beg to play me in a forced environement just to get the chance to time me out on every occassion possible?
There must be a word for this form of disorder.
Posted by Dunenzed on 2015-02-27 07:22:22
Some people have third world internet access like those poor buggers in New Zealand. Sometimes this means they can drop their connection to the server, and it is not immediately apparent that they have done so. This is the TT equivalent of having a stroke. At tabletop events would you time the guy out or get him medical attention?
Posted by JanMattys on 2015-02-27 09:46:03
Arktoris, this is different because the standard NAF rules for tabletop do not enforce the 4 mins rule. In all the tabletop tournaments I have taken part in, you have 2h 15 to play your game. You can take all the time you want on a single turn, as long as the game ends on time.
Additional rules are along the lines of: if you are taking too much, you're given a competitive clock with 15 minutes left. Each coach has one. You can use all the time you need on a single turn, but you just have a pool of 15 mins left. If you spend 15 mins on turn 6 second half, you're forced to just end turn on turn 7 and 8, because your available time has run out.
The 4 mins rule is not enforced during NAF tournaments. That's why it is different from a player faling down or a all dropped.
And again: I DO understand why the 4 mins rule is there. But the fact that it's there doesn't really mean you shouldn't care about the social expectations it carries with it. Namely, since people VERY RARELY use it, warn your opponent that, for whatever reason you fancy, you are going to use it. Once you warn him, it's ok.
But using it during a critical turn, with no warning whatsoever, is sad. Especially if it's not the Fumbbl Cup final, but just a regular game with nothing at stake.
Additional rules are along the lines of: if you are taking too much, you're given a competitive clock with 15 minutes left. Each coach has one. You can use all the time you need on a single turn, but you just have a pool of 15 mins left. If you spend 15 mins on turn 6 second half, you're forced to just end turn on turn 7 and 8, because your available time has run out.
The 4 mins rule is not enforced during NAF tournaments. That's why it is different from a player faling down or a all dropped.
And again: I DO understand why the 4 mins rule is there. But the fact that it's there doesn't really mean you shouldn't care about the social expectations it carries with it. Namely, since people VERY RARELY use it, warn your opponent that, for whatever reason you fancy, you are going to use it. Once you warn him, it's ok.
But using it during a critical turn, with no warning whatsoever, is sad. Especially if it's not the Fumbbl Cup final, but just a regular game with nothing at stake.