54 coaches online • Server time: 19:05
* * * Did you know? The oldest player is debog with 649 games played.
Recent Forum Topics  Secret League Americ... | Gnomes are trash | Roster Tiers |
2020-05-04 20:42:22
32 votes, rating 2.9
32 votes, rating 2.9
Filter "coach" for gamefinder
Gamefinder could really benefit from a filter where you can filter coaches. Some coaches just are not interested in fair matches. Either the gamefinder gets polluted by their teams effectively increasing the work to find good games or such coaches spam offer their teams like Orc vs Goblins over and over again. The "biing" sound becomes annoying then.
There could be an info of how many coaches and teams have been filtered and maybe how many offers they gave to you in case you become curious or do not want to wait longer for a game. Ideally coaches that have been put on a filter should be able to see which coaches currently on gamefinder do not want to play you so they can either filter them in return or start making good offers.
There may be also other valid reasons for some of you that have come into mind right now. ;)
There could be an info of how many coaches and teams have been filtered and maybe how many offers they gave to you in case you become curious or do not want to wait longer for a game. Ideally coaches that have been put on a filter should be able to see which coaches currently on gamefinder do not want to play you so they can either filter them in return or start making good offers.
There may be also other valid reasons for some of you that have come into mind right now. ;)
Comments
Posted by Rbthma on 2020-05-04 21:22:08
You can turn the pinging sound off in the settings.
I have a fun solution for repeated and vexatious greenlighting of my funny build teams by pickers (some coaches don't get the hint) but I can't say it here ^-^
I have a fun solution for repeated and vexatious greenlighting of my funny build teams by pickers (some coaches don't get the hint) but I can't say it here ^-^
Posted by panalukidis on 2020-05-04 21:27:35
Please Rbthma, I love/play stunties and i'm crap, and would love to know how to vex pickers.
Posted by DonnyRainboe on 2020-05-04 21:56:56
Why not blackbox.?
Posted by JanMattys on 2020-05-04 22:00:47
The only thing that gamefinder DOESNT need is a way to reduce the matchups available.
Since my return I have tried incredibly hard to revamp my Hellfish in ranked and I ended up switching to the box (which hurt, because I love my legendary humans).
But so many people just refuse decent matchups that it's not even funny. And allowing people even more tools to refuse offers without even noticing they are there is not a solution and never will be.
Since my return I have tried incredibly hard to revamp my Hellfish in ranked and I ended up switching to the box (which hurt, because I love my legendary humans).
But so many people just refuse decent matchups that it's not even funny. And allowing people even more tools to refuse offers without even noticing they are there is not a solution and never will be.
Posted by Dominik on 2020-05-04 22:12:15
I won't be pushed to play an highly unfair match just because I want to play anything. You should never feel forced to do so. A filter simply reduces the work to find games.
Posted by erased000047 on 2020-05-04 22:56:42
I felt to comment on this since I would consider myself- and by many- an expert (god I'm going to regret this lol) when it comes to ranked.
If you glance at the number of games of games I've played (and in the time I've played them) you'll notice.. um I play alot of games.. most of them in ranked... (we can talk about playing alot of games at another time lol)
if you want to avoid the picker when they greenlight you, just click the red "minus" sign and that match up will go away, and it will get removed from thier choices as well..
the Zen Master of bloodbowl-(Arested Development) gave me some good advice that I will pass on to you.. he said "you are on here for your entertainment and fun. Not for anybody elses. If there is a match you don't like, don't take it. Your not obligated to play every greenlight that pings you."
see I will play anybody, at anytime with any bad match up, well I used to be that way... I've become a bit choosier now that I am aware of what coaches do the noob picking the most, and If I give a bad match up to someone, I expect and know that other coach "owes me" either a fair match or a bad match in my favor in the future...
so with that said, no a filter is not needed... You just have to understand whats going on in Ranked...if that type of game matching doesn't appeal, I sugest trying out blackbox- and I recomend your first try in blackbox team be orcs or dark elves. both do well in box and have thier differences.
Also, find a league or two that looks fun to you..
Secret league offers a cornacopia of teams and leagues/ tournaments
also CIBBL IS a fluff heavy league that is from what I see one of the largest on fumble, to find leagues click the game tab and then click leagues.
ok thats it, good luck regards-
Swampy
If you glance at the number of games of games I've played (and in the time I've played them) you'll notice.. um I play alot of games.. most of them in ranked... (we can talk about playing alot of games at another time lol)
if you want to avoid the picker when they greenlight you, just click the red "minus" sign and that match up will go away, and it will get removed from thier choices as well..
the Zen Master of bloodbowl-(Arested Development) gave me some good advice that I will pass on to you.. he said "you are on here for your entertainment and fun. Not for anybody elses. If there is a match you don't like, don't take it. Your not obligated to play every greenlight that pings you."
see I will play anybody, at anytime with any bad match up, well I used to be that way... I've become a bit choosier now that I am aware of what coaches do the noob picking the most, and If I give a bad match up to someone, I expect and know that other coach "owes me" either a fair match or a bad match in my favor in the future...
so with that said, no a filter is not needed... You just have to understand whats going on in Ranked...if that type of game matching doesn't appeal, I sugest trying out blackbox- and I recomend your first try in blackbox team be orcs or dark elves. both do well in box and have thier differences.
Also, find a league or two that looks fun to you..
Secret league offers a cornacopia of teams and leagues/ tournaments
also CIBBL IS a fluff heavy league that is from what I see one of the largest on fumble, to find leagues click the game tab and then click leagues.
ok thats it, good luck regards-
Swampy
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-04 23:07:47
Black Box is the only true answer.
With so many people around now, finding a game there is quick and it will be likely fair too in terms of close-TV pairing (while in the past, with few people activating especially in NA timezone you could find the odd big TV gap from time to time).
If you play in Ranked, it's normal you will have to refuse lot of unfair offers.
Save yourself that hassle and play in the Black Box.
With so many people around now, finding a game there is quick and it will be likely fair too in terms of close-TV pairing (while in the past, with few people activating especially in NA timezone you could find the odd big TV gap from time to time).
If you play in Ranked, it's normal you will have to refuse lot of unfair offers.
Save yourself that hassle and play in the Black Box.
Posted by JanMattys on 2020-05-04 23:20:31
See, I write "finding games is difficult as it is" and you reply "I will not be pushed to play something unfair".
That doesn't logically follow from my statement.
You are not pushed / forced to play anything.
You already have both the right and the means to delete a matchup that you don't like so that it will disappear from the pool.
What you ask for, though, is for an automatic tool so that you don't even have to look at proposals in order to refuse them.
That's bad. Even pickers will sometimes offer fair matchups, and having an automatic tool filtering things based on preconceptions will only hurt the system.
That doesn't logically follow from my statement.
You are not pushed / forced to play anything.
You already have both the right and the means to delete a matchup that you don't like so that it will disappear from the pool.
What you ask for, though, is for an automatic tool so that you don't even have to look at proposals in order to refuse them.
That's bad. Even pickers will sometimes offer fair matchups, and having an automatic tool filtering things based on preconceptions will only hurt the system.
Posted by Dominik on 2020-05-04 23:22:44
@Swampserpent:
Not that there are coaches who endlessly offer the same teams again and again despite become rejected, some coaches simply would not accept an offer of mine if it does not heavily favor them. These are coaches with a record of 40/4/4 by playing continuously against teams coached by CR 155 or below.
Then I know that there is no way to play with this coach but still I have to filter manually all his 20 teams in gamefinder in order to find those coaches available for a good game.
@janmattys:
I stopped to decline unfair offers so that the coach cannot rejoin with all his teams and offer it again. At least decline an offer should block the coach until one of our two teams has played a game. That must be within the spirit of Blood Bowl and FUMBBL.
Not that there are coaches who endlessly offer the same teams again and again despite become rejected, some coaches simply would not accept an offer of mine if it does not heavily favor them. These are coaches with a record of 40/4/4 by playing continuously against teams coached by CR 155 or below.
Then I know that there is no way to play with this coach but still I have to filter manually all his 20 teams in gamefinder in order to find those coaches available for a good game.
@janmattys:
I stopped to decline unfair offers so that the coach cannot rejoin with all his teams and offer it again. At least decline an offer should block the coach until one of our two teams has played a game. That must be within the spirit of Blood Bowl and FUMBBL.
Posted by awambawamb on 2020-05-04 23:32:14
...it really seems to me that you're destabilized by some users being merely online and looking for a game at the very same time you do.
a short tale: the last 4 months were absolutely HELL. I found myself doing twice the work in a quarter of the time, not exaggerating by any means, because of a crazy person who decided to dump a truckload of dung over the biggest fan you can imagine just for the sake of it. now, while I'm I'm volunteering in my town for the CoViD-19 emergency. and guess whom is volunteering, too? that idiot, who is already skipping turns (too much work might be detrimental to the human health, remember). I've decided to ignore whatever *it* does. Not my business. That presence is nothing to me. totally not going to ruin my life, my time anymore.
Simple as that: IGNORE THEM. Is good you're writing this now, because you're asking for this community's help actually. You don't want to smash your keyboard every time you see them, you don't want to to go offline every time they greenlight you. The moment you'll be able to cope with their behavior without feeling the need to vent out your frustration for the system we all use you'll realize that it was really nothing, after all.
a short tale: the last 4 months were absolutely HELL. I found myself doing twice the work in a quarter of the time, not exaggerating by any means, because of a crazy person who decided to dump a truckload of dung over the biggest fan you can imagine just for the sake of it. now, while I'm I'm volunteering in my town for the CoViD-19 emergency. and guess whom is volunteering, too? that idiot, who is already skipping turns (too much work might be detrimental to the human health, remember). I've decided to ignore whatever *it* does. Not my business. That presence is nothing to me. totally not going to ruin my life, my time anymore.
Simple as that: IGNORE THEM. Is good you're writing this now, because you're asking for this community's help actually. You don't want to smash your keyboard every time you see them, you don't want to to go offline every time they greenlight you. The moment you'll be able to cope with their behavior without feeling the need to vent out your frustration for the system we all use you'll realize that it was really nothing, after all.
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-05 00:35:33
I think it is a fair request. Though probably not worth Christer's time to implement.
There are some coaches that people may not want to play under any circumstances. Some coaches that people will only play as last resort. In that case if you see no games you can switch some filters off.
If those coaches do throw on 20 teams each the yeah, that would be a load of cruft to sift through.
I'd start by blacklisting anyone with no Secret League teams. ;)
There are some coaches that people may not want to play under any circumstances. Some coaches that people will only play as last resort. In that case if you see no games you can switch some filters off.
If those coaches do throw on 20 teams each the yeah, that would be a load of cruft to sift through.
I'd start by blacklisting anyone with no Secret League teams. ;)
Posted by FinnDiesel on 2020-05-05 02:13:44
Is ranked or Blackbox more popular?
Posted by MenonaLoco on 2020-05-05 03:52:59
Awambawamb is 100% right.
1) Turn off the ping.
2) Dont feel pushed to accept any game, cause you are not. This is ridiculous.
3) Play more box.
4) be more like swampy (and that goes for everybody, specially me)
1) Turn off the ping.
2) Dont feel pushed to accept any game, cause you are not. This is ridiculous.
3) Play more box.
4) be more like swampy (and that goes for everybody, specially me)
Posted by fidius on 2020-05-05 04:16:00
It's one thing to ignore the actions of a player if you know the only potential victim is yourself. It's quite another to know they will eventually succeed with someone else, ie take advantage of some kid, new user, or RP bloke just trying to have some fun at the end of his long day. These people are parasites. Healthy communities have to have antibodies to counter behaviour like this imo.
Posted by SanKuKai on 2020-05-05 06:29:18
hey : no parasites in DA BOX, just mens... thats THE solution :)
Posted by mekutata on 2020-05-05 06:46:03
i made my own filter. i activate goblins and wait. when a tier 1 team with lower TV challenges us i check out who is their coach.
i then put the coach on a shame list (looks like a friends list on my page). then i activate a team for the box.
i then put the coach on a shame list (looks like a friends list on my page). then i activate a team for the box.
Posted by PurpleChest on 2020-05-05 08:03:35
Dominik there is a lack of empathic thought here.
When you think of an idea you need to think not jjust 'what do I want and how will I use it? but also 'How will what I want be used by others?'.
You will use it to avoid people you think offer unfair games, who will they use it for? For you. They will use it for you.
And most better players/legends will find there gamefinders very sparse. People will be even more reduced to 'their bubble' or 'their comfort zone'.
Any system that allows us to rate of block coaches, in a game that is prone to generating highly emotional responses, will lead to abuse.
It will reduce gamefinder options for all.
How is this is a good thing?
When you think of an idea you need to think not jjust 'what do I want and how will I use it? but also 'How will what I want be used by others?'.
You will use it to avoid people you think offer unfair games, who will they use it for? For you. They will use it for you.
And most better players/legends will find there gamefinders very sparse. People will be even more reduced to 'their bubble' or 'their comfort zone'.
Any system that allows us to rate of block coaches, in a game that is prone to generating highly emotional responses, will lead to abuse.
It will reduce gamefinder options for all.
How is this is a good thing?
Posted by Cloggy on 2020-05-05 08:41:56
It sure would be wonderful not to have all of S****'s teams polluting the gamefinder when I go looking for a match. Now I have to manually remove them from the list every time, because i know he will never play me anyway.
Hardly something that should be anywhere near the top or even top half of the staff's priorities though.
Hardly something that should be anywhere near the top or even top half of the staff's priorities though.
Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2020-05-05 08:57:41
Pretty sure C was/is working on a new gamefinder, and filter by coach was available - not necessarily to just blank an entire coach, but to collapse their team's listing.
Of course, new client and rules compatibility take priority.
Of course, new client and rules compatibility take priority.
Posted by Wozzaa on 2020-05-05 10:14:00
@cloggy. Did some investigation and figured out who you mean.
Posted by Thoriin on 2020-05-05 11:20:57
I never proposed my orc teams to gobs. Only dwarves or chorfs.
Posted by det on 2020-05-05 14:33:19
Or sometimes...accept their offer...punch them for good as usually superpickers are not that good anyway :D
Did so with my Ogres once...that made for a really fun game!! ;) was my 500th...think I even wrote a blog post about it!
Did so with my Ogres once...that made for a really fun game!! ;) was my 500th...think I even wrote a blog post about it!
Posted by Muff2n on 2020-05-05 14:37:40
@PC. The request is for a feature to make the current behaviour of Ranked (choosing a match with a coach/team that you want to play) easier. If coach Y uses this feature to block coach X (because they never intend to play coach X), coach X benefits too because they don't waste time offering games to coach Y.
The worst case scenario you are depicting is of someone who blocks you, and in your opinion they they didn't really mean to block you, they were just being emotional. And now you don't get to offer matches to them. Can we not trust people to block people they don't want to play? After all, the person most impacted by a prolific block user is the block user themselves.
Ranked is all about people playing within their comfort zone, for better or for worse (I think worse which is why I'm a Box convert).
The worst case scenario you are depicting is of someone who blocks you, and in your opinion they they didn't really mean to block you, they were just being emotional. And now you don't get to offer matches to them. Can we not trust people to block people they don't want to play? After all, the person most impacted by a prolific block user is the block user themselves.
Ranked is all about people playing within their comfort zone, for better or for worse (I think worse which is why I'm a Box convert).
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-05 15:09:04
I think that maybe PC is afraid that the top coaches will be blocked because they are good, rather than because people don't like them. ;)
With this system, the would still not be able to get a game even when they put up their most terrible, uncompetitive team.
With this system, the would still not be able to get a game even when they put up their most terrible, uncompetitive team.
Posted by Dominik on 2020-05-05 16:19:55
Bad coaches do not block good coaches. After all they are bad because they make bad decisions and it starts with selecting the available opponents.
Posted by Muff2n on 2020-05-05 16:29:43
I get that. I just don't buy the "don't give an easily understood feature to someone because they might use it in a way that I view a mistake" argument. Those uber players can find a game against someone who appreciates the opportunity to play against someone good, and not vs this supposed player who blocks all good coaches as a matter of course because they are sure that they don't want to play anyone better than them. (Even if it would be against a team with more shadowing, injuries, and cheerleaders than ever seen before.)
Posted by Thresh on 2020-05-05 17:41:33
Go play box
Posted by Dominik on 2020-05-05 17:54:32
Black box is more suited to bashy teams once a certain TV is surpassed. How could I, for example, perform good in XFL Amazon with a Blackbox Amazon team? Check the distribution between soft and bashy teams in the last few major tournaments... almost all soft teams were Ranked. But most of the bashy teams were Blackbox teams.
Posted by SeekingtheTruth on 2020-05-05 18:04:29
Be the change you want to see! Set yourself a challenge to win XFL Amazon with a B team.
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-05 18:23:23
You are not forced to play an XFL Amazon.
Black Box games nowadays are generally fun, with new Piling On, the Box Trophy running and more people activating, which increases the chance of balanced pairings. The huge TV gap matches are really rare now.
If you win an XFL with a Ranked team farmed through picking, well, what's the achievement?
Ok you have another XFL Amazon win on your profile, but obtained through farming, dodging and picking offers.
You are a coach able to play in Box whatever opponent/team you face, so, if I were you, I would play in Box only.
You don't need to play in Ranked.
In Ranked you will have to pick or get picked, it's how the division works.
Black Box games nowadays are generally fun, with new Piling On, the Box Trophy running and more people activating, which increases the chance of balanced pairings. The huge TV gap matches are really rare now.
If you win an XFL with a Ranked team farmed through picking, well, what's the achievement?
Ok you have another XFL Amazon win on your profile, but obtained through farming, dodging and picking offers.
You are a coach able to play in Box whatever opponent/team you face, so, if I were you, I would play in Box only.
You don't need to play in Ranked.
In Ranked you will have to pick or get picked, it's how the division works.
Posted by Cloggy on 2020-05-05 19:14:47
Oh goody. MattDakka has finally managed to form an opinion in the BvsR debate :P
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-05 19:27:40
@Dominik: I didn't say "bad coaches", I said people.
Do you think that no one dodges coaches who they think are better than them?
I think that even some "bad coaches" might have the wit to figure out that a Legend is likely to beat them.
Do you think that no one dodges coaches who they think are better than them?
I think that even some "bad coaches" might have the wit to figure out that a Legend is likely to beat them.
Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2020-05-05 19:38:19
Legend is overrated.
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-05 19:43:26
It shows that a person wins a lot of games compared to losing.
Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2020-05-05 20:00:20
It shows mostly recent form actually. There's plenty of people floating about with legend tags and not particularly fantastic winrates.
Posted by Gozer_the_Gozerian on 2020-05-05 22:15:07
Usually I get bored of Gamefinder and wander off long before any particular coach could annoy me with unwanted offers. I guess that is one of the benefits of having the attention span of a fruit fly.
Posted by Arktoris on 2020-05-06 01:32:29
in Ranked, you reap what you sow.
Posted by Dominik on 2020-05-06 01:55:40
Wouldnt it be better for us two to not see each other on Gamefinder anymore? Just as one example of many.
Posted by MenonaLoco on 2020-05-06 09:22:42
MattDakka is right.
(Omg, can't believe i wrote this).
Also, Dominik, most bash Teams coming from B is not because of B favoures bash, but because bash gets ducked in R.
(Omg, can't believe i wrote this).
Also, Dominik, most bash Teams coming from B is not because of B favoures bash, but because bash gets ducked in R.
Posted by bghandras on 2020-05-06 12:35:17
I wonder how much would a ranked coach pay for an AI, who picks for him. Who observes his habits, and automatically declines options he would never accept.
I am fairly sure it is theoretically possible to get such AI. I suspect the cost would be pretty high, though, and very special knowledge needed to install. But if someone wants to pick (yes, counter picking is still picking), and be lazy about it, then by all means, explore all options! ;)
I am fairly sure it is theoretically possible to get such AI. I suspect the cost would be pretty high, though, and very special knowledge needed to install. But if someone wants to pick (yes, counter picking is still picking), and be lazy about it, then by all means, explore all options! ;)
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-06 16:17:41
It probably wouldn't need to be an AI. Many people have pretty simple rules. ;)
Posted by Joost on 2020-05-06 17:07:59
I'm not even so sure what Ranked adds in comparison to League: either division allows players to have any team play against another team and pick games as they like based on availability. So Ranked influences CR, but that could be done using any game with League-based teams too I think. You could exclude any teams in an actual league from gamefinder and you pretty much have ranked. Or am I missing something?
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-06 17:48:15
Some people think that CR is important and competitive so Ranked has extra rules to reduce the cheating. League does not have that. People can do what they like.
The rules are also to keep things "fair" for official tournaments.
The rules are also to keep things "fair" for official tournaments.
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-06 17:53:14
League also currently has issues with teams from different rulesets. Hopefully, the new gamefinder will fix that.
Multiple people putting on a large number of teams is an issue on the current gamefinder is an issue.
Multiple people putting on a large number of teams is an issue on the current gamefinder is an issue.
Posted by bigf on 2020-05-06 18:02:53
maybe we could fund raise for the site with a one off move from Rank to Box so all those coaches who want to play B with teams long established in R could move to B and play as and when they want.
I have some R teams I would love to play in B and have a better chance of getting a game.
Though not sure if it is possible from a technical point of view.
I have some R teams I would love to play in B and have a better chance of getting a game.
Though not sure if it is possible from a technical point of view.
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-06 18:20:12
I think it is technically possible to migrate a team from R to B, I remember a team which moved from division to division (I don't remember the team but I'm sure that somebody did it as donation reward or something like that).
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-06 18:24:42
Yes, it is technically possible but I can't see Christer doing it.
We did get to move some teams to League but I have not heard of anyone moving to Box. Moving from Box to Ranked is more likely. But still not very.
We did get to move some teams to League but I have not heard of anyone moving to Box. Moving from Box to Ranked is more likely. But still not very.
Posted by JanMattys on 2020-05-06 18:30:06
If I remember well there was a once in a lifetime chance to move to B when B was first introduced.
It's a pity, though. I would gladly donate money to have the Hellfish moved to B where I can continue its legacy. In R, honestly, my greatest team is more or less dead because the time needed sitting on gamefinder to get a game (even a crappy one) is unreasonable.
It's a pity, though. I would gladly donate money to have the Hellfish moved to B where I can continue its legacy. In R, honestly, my greatest team is more or less dead because the time needed sitting on gamefinder to get a game (even a crappy one) is unreasonable.
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-06 18:30:07
No rule can remove the picking, only blind matchmaking.
Shame that pure Box coaches like me lose extra CR points as if they deliberately picked opponents with 130 CR (I would never ever play vs such low CR coaches because even if I win 2-0 I earn 0 CR points, so, they are a waste of my time) just because the CR formula is used for both Ranked and Box.
In my dreams it would be nice to have a CR formula specific for Black Box without the anti-picking part (which is, as far as I have understood, the multiplier of the ranking diffence, so if you are Legend and lose to an Emerging Star the CR loss is amplified by the 3 rank difference (i.e. Star, Super Star, Legend).
That said, I'm not complaining, even with the flawed formula games are mostly enjoyable, neverending thanks to Christer and staff.
Shame that pure Box coaches like me lose extra CR points as if they deliberately picked opponents with 130 CR (I would never ever play vs such low CR coaches because even if I win 2-0 I earn 0 CR points, so, they are a waste of my time) just because the CR formula is used for both Ranked and Box.
In my dreams it would be nice to have a CR formula specific for Black Box without the anti-picking part (which is, as far as I have understood, the multiplier of the ranking diffence, so if you are Legend and lose to an Emerging Star the CR loss is amplified by the 3 rank difference (i.e. Star, Super Star, Legend).
That said, I'm not complaining, even with the flawed formula games are mostly enjoyable, neverending thanks to Christer and staff.
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-06 18:51:36
A 170 coach beating a 130 coach 2-0? You are not going to get much for that and shouldn't. Zero is a bit harsh but it is going to be close to zero no matter what.
And if you should lose... ;)
And if you should lose... ;)
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-06 19:05:09
I didn't say I should get 2 CR for beating a 130 CR, but for example
earning 0.01 would be better than 0.
0.01 is the minimum to represent the win.
earning 0.01 would be better than 0.
0.01 is the minimum to represent the win.
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-06 19:42:25
"Zero is a bit harsh but it is going to be close to zero no matter what."
Posted by awambawamb on 2020-05-07 02:45:34
oh look who's talking about CR again
Posted by Joost on 2020-05-07 09:01:16
I know Matt can sometimes push it, but we can't really fault him for bringing up CR in a discussion about Ranked right? From Koadah's response I gather that the difference what makes Ranked not just a large part of League is that CR is calculated on its games. So bringing up CR here makes sense to me. Again, unless I am missing something.
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-07 11:21:37
Heh heh.
We could start a petition to have the Hellfishes moved as they are a legendary team.
But I guess we would then have people saying that their team is even more legendary. ;)
There can't be too many of those though.
We could start a petition to have the Hellfishes moved as they are a legendary team.
But I guess we would then have people saying that their team is even more legendary. ;)
There can't be too many of those though.
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-07 13:21:15
Ranked picking can have 3 reasons as far as I can imagine:
1) getting easy wins (that could happen in League too, but it could be fixed by not considering League games for purpose of coach's win rate calculation);
2) getting CR (that could not happen in League);
3) build a team for a Major (that could not happen in League);
So, deleting Ranked is what I would logically do in my own utopic world (I know it's not going to happen on FUMBBL, before somebody jumps to my throat :D).
In my utopic world people could still pick in League division, if that is fun for them, and Majors and CR would not be skewed by the picking, which creates unnatural built teams and an unfair ranking system (the CR earned for a game you can pick in R has logically and obviously less value than the CR earned for a game you can't pick in B).
I read somewhere that picking games in Ranked is considered a component of coach's skill, but honestly, it doesn't take lot of skill to pick/dodge games unless you are new to the game, and CR is supposed to measure the ability of win a reasonably fair and balanced game, not the ability of carefully picking a game.
Otherwise, it should be more accurately called "Picking Ranking" and kept separated from "Coach Ranking".
1) getting easy wins (that could happen in League too, but it could be fixed by not considering League games for purpose of coach's win rate calculation);
2) getting CR (that could not happen in League);
3) build a team for a Major (that could not happen in League);
So, deleting Ranked is what I would logically do in my own utopic world (I know it's not going to happen on FUMBBL, before somebody jumps to my throat :D).
In my utopic world people could still pick in League division, if that is fun for them, and Majors and CR would not be skewed by the picking, which creates unnatural built teams and an unfair ranking system (the CR earned for a game you can pick in R has logically and obviously less value than the CR earned for a game you can't pick in B).
I read somewhere that picking games in Ranked is considered a component of coach's skill, but honestly, it doesn't take lot of skill to pick/dodge games unless you are new to the game, and CR is supposed to measure the ability of win a reasonably fair and balanced game, not the ability of carefully picking a game.
Otherwise, it should be more accurately called "Picking Ranking" and kept separated from "Coach Ranking".
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-07 15:18:54
Matt, you seem to have very little appreciation of how other people's minds work.
People, generally speaking, like winning. They will continue to like winning even if you get rid of win rate, get rid of CR, and get rid of Majors.
Many people like to "build a team". That is not purely about Majors. They like to keep their best players, they may like their team to stay above a certain CR. They may just be fluffily attached to certain players.
Picking is not only about outrageous picking. People will have different ideas about what is a fair matchup and no one wants to think that they being had.
People generally want a slight advantage. Even if they think that they don't.
It is just that some people pick harder than others.
People, generally speaking, like winning. They will continue to like winning even if you get rid of win rate, get rid of CR, and get rid of Majors.
Many people like to "build a team". That is not purely about Majors. They like to keep their best players, they may like their team to stay above a certain CR. They may just be fluffily attached to certain players.
Picking is not only about outrageous picking. People will have different ideas about what is a fair matchup and no one wants to think that they being had.
People generally want a slight advantage. Even if they think that they don't.
It is just that some people pick harder than others.
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-07 15:37:44
I know, what I meant is that people like winning/building should do it in League division, where they at least they would not gain CR for their picked games.
The fact that somebody can have my same CR or higher by playing in Ranked only is not fair. CR (and overall win rate as well) should be won only by playing blind matchmaking.
I know that people want a slight advantage, but removing the possibility of picking would be a step forward to counter this attitude.
If people can pick and get CR too of course they will not stop doing it.
The fact that somebody can have my same CR or higher by playing in Ranked only is not fair. CR (and overall win rate as well) should be won only by playing blind matchmaking.
I know that people want a slight advantage, but removing the possibility of picking would be a step forward to counter this attitude.
If people can pick and get CR too of course they will not stop doing it.
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-07 15:39:18
Since people can have different opinions about what a fair match is, the rational solution is using an objective automated scheduler to arrange games.
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-07 16:23:06
How many people really care about CR as much as you? Probably not many, which is why this is not going to change.
You have a Box CR value. If that is what you prefer, then that is the one you should look at.
Removing CR would be a mistake because people like it. They are not obsessed with the way that you seem to be. It is a number that goes up when they win and goes down when they lose. It does the job. People can set goals by it. I guess that the difference between 0.00 and 0.01 is not enough to bother most people even if they agree with you and think that they should get the 0.01.
We have the Box. People are free to use it. But as for fairness, there is still scope for min-maxing, and some might say that matching a 170CR coach vs a 130CR coach isn't "fair".
You have a Box CR value. If that is what you prefer, then that is the one you should look at.
Removing CR would be a mistake because people like it. They are not obsessed with the way that you seem to be. It is a number that goes up when they win and goes down when they lose. It does the job. People can set goals by it. I guess that the difference between 0.00 and 0.01 is not enough to bother most people even if they agree with you and think that they should get the 0.01.
We have the Box. People are free to use it. But as for fairness, there is still scope for min-maxing, and some might say that matching a 170CR coach vs a 130CR coach isn't "fair".
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-07 16:34:51
"matching a 170CR coach vs a 130CR coach isn't "fair"."
I agree, and I said that I would not deliberately play vs such a coach, because it's not a contest and because I don't earn CR even if winning.
Ideally there should be only 1 matchmaking division split in different CR brackets, for example: Bronze division with only Rookie, Experienced, Veteran coaches; Silver division with Emerging Star and Star, and Gold division with Super Star and Legend coaches.
If 3 brackets are too many for the userbase, they could be only 2: one with Rookie, Experience, Veteran, Emerging Star coaches and another one with Star, Super Star and Legend coaches.
That would make for more balanced games and would prevent the 0 CR gain games.
I agree, and I said that I would not deliberately play vs such a coach, because it's not a contest and because I don't earn CR even if winning.
Ideally there should be only 1 matchmaking division split in different CR brackets, for example: Bronze division with only Rookie, Experienced, Veteran coaches; Silver division with Emerging Star and Star, and Gold division with Super Star and Legend coaches.
If 3 brackets are too many for the userbase, they could be only 2: one with Rookie, Experience, Veteran, Emerging Star coaches and another one with Star, Super Star and Legend coaches.
That would make for more balanced games and would prevent the 0 CR gain games.
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-07 16:39:30
Great idea except that the userbase isn't big enough and we're not merging R & B. ;)
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-07 17:00:46
I know. I talked about an ideal system for the sake of academic debate. :)
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-07 17:15:31
Now that I think of it, a way to fix the 0 CR issue could be not allowing the scheduler to arrange a game where the winner would earn 0 CR points (because it's probably a big coaches' skills mismatch), with suitability score or another system.
For example, if the CR difference of the 2 coaches is greater than X CR points (30 or 40, for example), the game is not suitable.
For example, if the CR difference of the 2 coaches is greater than X CR points (30 or 40, for example), the game is not suitable.
Posted by koadah on 2020-05-07 17:22:32
If there were only 2 games scheduled that would mean no game for any of the 4 coaches.
Much easier,
If crGain == 0 set crGain to 0.01 ;)
Much easier,
If crGain == 0 set crGain to 0.01 ;)
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-07 17:41:43
Yes, that's what I already suggested some posts ago, i.e. a win should at least give 0.01. You used a formula, but the idea is the same.
The idea I wrote 2 posts above, instead, was about trying to prevent unfair matches 130 vs 170 from being scheduled.
The idea I wrote 2 posts above, instead, was about trying to prevent unfair matches 130 vs 170 from being scheduled.
Posted by MattDakka on 2020-05-07 17:45:09
To summarize: I prefer to play fair matches scheduled vs close TV teams and CR opponents (Super Stars and Legends) if possible, but, if I have to play vs a very low CR coach I'd like to earn at least 0.01 when winning, not 0.
Posted by Dominik on 2020-05-07 19:03:45
Uh no! Skill based match making is not good. In Fortnite it frustrates those with high skill as they never get relaxing games anymore.
Remember the rule: If there is no money in it never seperate between skill levels.
Remember the rule: If there is no money in it never seperate between skill levels.
Posted by PainState on 2020-05-08 04:51:09
Box offers fair match ups in terms of TV but a lot of times it also offers match ups that are not fair in terms of Race VS Race. That is fine, I have no problem with that because that is what the Box is for.
Ranked on the other hand offers both coaches match ups they both want to play. Some of the times when I play, which sadly is not that much any more, I usually play against coaches I know and will accept almost any offer from them. Coaches who I do not know I will always take a match if it looks fun.
I never accept or decline a challenge in Ranked based on if I think I will auto win or lose.
**This is just me, not a broad statement **
I do think some coaches play Box because over there instead of Ranked they stand a way better chance of getting a favorable match up in terms of race and TV range (sweet spot) in order to get a better chance at almost an auto win. Also in Box they have the built in defense, if any body calls them out, that it is the Box, man deal with it. Over in ranked you always run the chance at some coaches calling you a cherry picker or a coach who looks to pick on the new coaches. In the end no matter your style the Box is a defense those types of coaches can always fall back on.
Then some dude starts a blog and then it turns into a 100+ comment blog.
It does bring me a smile to my face that even in 2020 we are still bitching and moaning about that exact same thing we where in 2007.
Ranked on the other hand offers both coaches match ups they both want to play. Some of the times when I play, which sadly is not that much any more, I usually play against coaches I know and will accept almost any offer from them. Coaches who I do not know I will always take a match if it looks fun.
I never accept or decline a challenge in Ranked based on if I think I will auto win or lose.
**This is just me, not a broad statement **
I do think some coaches play Box because over there instead of Ranked they stand a way better chance of getting a favorable match up in terms of race and TV range (sweet spot) in order to get a better chance at almost an auto win. Also in Box they have the built in defense, if any body calls them out, that it is the Box, man deal with it. Over in ranked you always run the chance at some coaches calling you a cherry picker or a coach who looks to pick on the new coaches. In the end no matter your style the Box is a defense those types of coaches can always fall back on.
Then some dude starts a blog and then it turns into a 100+ comment blog.
It does bring me a smile to my face that even in 2020 we are still bitching and moaning about that exact same thing we where in 2007.