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2012-06-27 15:55:41
59 votes, rating 5.3
59 votes, rating 5.3
My take on Min/Maxed low TV Box teams
I think too many people look upon these sorts of teams with hatred. Personally I just look at them with pity. One coach of this sort had a team that for arguments sake was called ‘Really Big’. Straight away you can see that this sort of coach has severe confidence issues. Later on the team was retired as a wave of honesty broke and the new team ‘Really Little’ was born. (remember the team’s names have been altered to protect the individual involved)
The sort of coach that plays as these sorts of teams is probably the sort of coach that if they had a child (and sadly there has still yet to be a law passed insisting on a competency test before people are allowed to be parents) would challenge their new born to a game of scrabble and then ridicule the child when it lost. They will challenge old age pensioners that are wheelchair bound to a triple jump competition and not even have the god damn courtesy to build a ramp. They would probably only ever play eye-spy with Stevie Wonder.
Could you imagine how desperately sad that person must be in their life?
I don’t feel I am bragging when I say I am an ‘above average’ coach. In fact I probably am somewhere around the bottom end of the top 100. As such I feel a responsibility to play in such a way that newer, more inexperienced coaches can look up to. I shouldn’t have to rely on cheese tactics to win games. When I play the new coaches I should play rough but fair. All of these are self-imposed restrictions, but I stand by them.
So in future when you do play these teams rather than feel despondent, ask the coach if they are ok. Is there anything they want to get of their chest. They probably just need a hug and to be told that they are loved and their parents do love them really.
(disclaimer, if any of this offends you I apologise I am having a bad day at work. And don’t worry I do really believe your parents do love you!)
The sort of coach that plays as these sorts of teams is probably the sort of coach that if they had a child (and sadly there has still yet to be a law passed insisting on a competency test before people are allowed to be parents) would challenge their new born to a game of scrabble and then ridicule the child when it lost. They will challenge old age pensioners that are wheelchair bound to a triple jump competition and not even have the god damn courtesy to build a ramp. They would probably only ever play eye-spy with Stevie Wonder.
Could you imagine how desperately sad that person must be in their life?
I don’t feel I am bragging when I say I am an ‘above average’ coach. In fact I probably am somewhere around the bottom end of the top 100. As such I feel a responsibility to play in such a way that newer, more inexperienced coaches can look up to. I shouldn’t have to rely on cheese tactics to win games. When I play the new coaches I should play rough but fair. All of these are self-imposed restrictions, but I stand by them.
So in future when you do play these teams rather than feel despondent, ask the coach if they are ok. Is there anything they want to get of their chest. They probably just need a hug and to be told that they are loved and their parents do love them really.
(disclaimer, if any of this offends you I apologise I am having a bad day at work. And don’t worry I do really believe your parents do love you!)
Comments
Posted by Cribbleobblepie on 2012-06-27 16:01:59
My plea has been answered, I can rate it a six now! :)
Posted by Azure on 2012-06-27 16:05:10
Well said.
Posted by Endzone on 2012-06-27 16:22:48
Rated 6 for the excellent term 'Cheese Tactics' which by the way would be a great name for min-maxed skaven...
Posted by Purplegoo on 2012-06-27 16:50:53
Well, I agree and I don't. I do pity such coaches when you put it like that. And on another day, when I choose to spend my extremely limited free time on a FUMBBL game, draw one and then feel likemy limited freetime iswasted... I tend not to.:)
People can choose to play how they like. No harm. I just think it's not unreasonable to back out of the equation with a slight grumble. ;)
People can choose to play how they like. No harm. I just think it's not unreasonable to back out of the equation with a slight grumble. ;)
Posted by duttydave on 2012-06-27 17:20:22
Disclaimer: No Mens were killed in this Blog
Posted by harvestmouse on 2012-06-27 17:31:54
They don't get my sympathy, ever. The bottom line is that new players find their way into the low TV box environment.
These players could be great contributors to the scene in a couple of years time, however they could be put off in the early days, by min-maxers who have nothing better to do than leach easy wins.
No sympathy here.
These players could be great contributors to the scene in a couple of years time, however they could be put off in the early days, by min-maxers who have nothing better to do than leach easy wins.
No sympathy here.
Posted by bassista on 2012-06-27 17:35:37
damn, why there isn't a number higher than 6?
by the way...mate, was thinkin the same the last time i've seen a game by that coach.
i mean, i agree with PG, everyone can play as he prefer, but...we play in 2, life is enough hard for everybody, i think it's just better have relax having a nice chat. i don't criticise the fact to play clawpombs, i've had great chat with chaos or cds coaches...but the mood you play the game with, i've had chat with him, considerin we're both italians, and...mah. sad.
by the way...mate, was thinkin the same the last time i've seen a game by that coach.
i mean, i agree with PG, everyone can play as he prefer, but...we play in 2, life is enough hard for everybody, i think it's just better have relax having a nice chat. i don't criticise the fact to play clawpombs, i've had great chat with chaos or cds coaches...but the mood you play the game with, i've had chat with him, considerin we're both italians, and...mah. sad.
Posted by blader4411 on 2012-06-27 18:05:16
The Mood certainly counts for a lot: I'd much rather play vs. Billbrasky's WMD's than the coach mentioned in this blog post.
By the way, how many of you were there when Synn obliterated said 'Really Big' team, and made him rage-retire?
Because I was there, and laughed my arse off.
By the way, how many of you were there when Synn obliterated said 'Really Big' team, and made him rage-retire?
Because I was there, and laughed my arse off.
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2012-06-27 18:47:24
What boggles my mind is how someone can get themselves to play hundreds of games at the exact same TV range, with the same team, developing and firing the exact same players, picking the same skill combo over an over, using the same tactics again and again, never going for an outstanding legend or a cool team, just grinding game after game after game...
Posted by Reisender on 2012-06-27 19:00:21
bring back TS!
Posted by blader4411 on 2012-06-27 19:23:06
@Overhamsteren: You don't. You play some with that team, some with an elf team, some in other divisions, etc. I'd have gotten bored a long time ago if I ONLY played my Pact. Maybe I'm only speaking for myself though?
Posted by Nelphine on 2012-06-27 19:28:17
I do hate them - but only because of new coaches. If new coaches had some built in wall, like not being able to play any team with more than 5 games more than their team so they don't rage quit the site before having a chance to really get to know the site, then low tv min/max box teams would be fine.
Posted by Purplegoo on 2012-06-27 19:31:32
Just to elucidate slightly on my above point now I've a proper keyboard, and to slightly cross blog comment with the below...
I have no issue with people playing the system. I believe that in 80%+ of cases, TV based matchmaking is the way to go.
My philosophy is to organically grow and contract teams and to enjoy building and playing Blood Bowl as it comes. This philosophy and a low level of game time does not compute with B.
I made the call this week to drop B until TS came in. Not in a 'Waa, woe is me, boo' way, I just want to ensure that the quality of fun and BB I play is as high as possible. Getting a 'real' team ripped to pieces by some minmaxers is not quality time.
I don't think it's a problem, wrong, immoral, a sign of a small manhood (well...), it's just not BB I enjoy. So I shall abstract myself from it.
I have no issue with people playing the system. I believe that in 80%+ of cases, TV based matchmaking is the way to go.
My philosophy is to organically grow and contract teams and to enjoy building and playing Blood Bowl as it comes. This philosophy and a low level of game time does not compute with B.
I made the call this week to drop B until TS came in. Not in a 'Waa, woe is me, boo' way, I just want to ensure that the quality of fun and BB I play is as high as possible. Getting a 'real' team ripped to pieces by some minmaxers is not quality time.
I don't think it's a problem, wrong, immoral, a sign of a small manhood (well...), it's just not BB I enjoy. So I shall abstract myself from it.
Posted by bghandras on 2012-06-27 19:34:50
I think it relates even more here:
"Why some people minmax? Because it seems to be beneficial. How to avoid it? Make beneficial which is fun for BOTH players. If skills are expensive, inefficient, then may damage fun.
I know it wont happen soon, but the whole issue could be solved with a different pricing policy for skills, and for linos and positionals. I am sure that minmaxing was never considered when amazon linewoman was priced at 50k, and amazon blitzer priced at 90k. And this is only one team, one comparison.
My 1st point is that some positionals are really not premium in the minmaxed economic world, which leads to teams with low TV in that segment.
My 2nd point is that noone would get rid off skilled players if skill would cost 10k instead of 20k. (Not suggesting to implement 10k, but to highlight the logic.)"
"Why some people minmax? Because it seems to be beneficial. How to avoid it? Make beneficial which is fun for BOTH players. If skills are expensive, inefficient, then may damage fun.
I know it wont happen soon, but the whole issue could be solved with a different pricing policy for skills, and for linos and positionals. I am sure that minmaxing was never considered when amazon linewoman was priced at 50k, and amazon blitzer priced at 90k. And this is only one team, one comparison.
My 1st point is that some positionals are really not premium in the minmaxed economic world, which leads to teams with low TV in that segment.
My 2nd point is that noone would get rid off skilled players if skill would cost 10k instead of 20k. (Not suggesting to implement 10k, but to highlight the logic.)"
Posted by Calcium on 2012-06-27 21:12:34
Purplegoo is often a voice of reason in amongst the usual crap that is typed here. find what style of BB you enjoy, and play it. Personally I enjoy B a lot, but I enjoy playing a diferent style in R.
I am a bit suprised and dissapointed that Freak went down the road of using imflammatory remarks to highlight his dislike of a playstyle. (bad day at the office I guess, as he said!)
The majority of us dont know each other personally, and despite getting into repeated trouble for abusing coaches even I would draw the line at suggesting a coach would exploit their children given their play preference here. Just because I am a self confessed worshipper of the blood in bloodbowl doesn't mean I like to see my children prone and bleeding on the floor. This will be hard to believe for many here, but I am fully capable of seperating this game from reality!
Call a coach an idiot etc....but lets leave the kids out of it eh?
And blame CRP. It's CRP's fault ultimately cause it sucks arse :)
I am a bit suprised and dissapointed that Freak went down the road of using imflammatory remarks to highlight his dislike of a playstyle. (bad day at the office I guess, as he said!)
The majority of us dont know each other personally, and despite getting into repeated trouble for abusing coaches even I would draw the line at suggesting a coach would exploit their children given their play preference here. Just because I am a self confessed worshipper of the blood in bloodbowl doesn't mean I like to see my children prone and bleeding on the floor. This will be hard to believe for many here, but I am fully capable of seperating this game from reality!
Call a coach an idiot etc....but lets leave the kids out of it eh?
And blame CRP. It's CRP's fault ultimately cause it sucks arse :)
Posted by Cevap on 2012-06-27 21:49:58
So freak, what you are trying to say here is that we (FUMBBLers) are just as lame as a bunch of old dudes in wheelchairs? :O
I know I'm not in good shape but still...
I know I'm not in good shape but still...
Posted by dode74 on 2012-06-27 22:28:20
"And blame CRP. It's CRP's fault ultimately cause it sucks arse :)"
Whether it sucks arse or not is a moot point really, since this is only a problem in TV-based MM. To me, that suggests TV-based matching (or the current system of it) is the problem.
Whether it sucks arse or not is a moot point really, since this is only a problem in TV-based MM. To me, that suggests TV-based matching (or the current system of it) is the problem.
Posted by TheAVKid on 2012-06-27 22:34:54
Sorry to break up the debate with a newb question, but what exactly is minmaxing, it sounds bad, so I feel like the guy watching the angry mob chase Frankenstein out of town, and saying, "What's that all about?"
Posted by Purplegoo on 2012-06-27 22:36:25
Good gravy! I can't even tell this fine dust was even a record anymore.
Seriously, get a new shtick, already dode! There are other, more sullied areas of this here interweb for you to post that and VoodooMike to argue the toss!
Crickey, Charlie...
Seriously, get a new shtick, already dode! There are other, more sullied areas of this here interweb for you to post that and VoodooMike to argue the toss!
Crickey, Charlie...
Posted by koadah on 2012-06-27 22:46:24
"I believe that in 80%+ of cases, TV based matchmaking is the way to go."
Oh wait Goo. Didn't you start it?
Oh wait Goo. Didn't you start it?
Posted by Purplegoo on 2012-06-27 22:50:46
Oh, you great scamp. :)
Taking one line from a longer passage I'd not communicated most of before is, as you well know, misleading in comparison to a much copied / pasted point we've all digested countless times. I don't know how the rubbishy other place operates, but I'm more than within reason showing a bit of exasperation here, methinks.
Taking one line from a longer passage I'd not communicated most of before is, as you well know, misleading in comparison to a much copied / pasted point we've all digested countless times. I don't know how the rubbishy other place operates, but I'm more than within reason showing a bit of exasperation here, methinks.
Posted by koadah on 2012-06-27 22:59:27
That was a long sentence. I suppose as you won't be playing Box any more we needn't worry about what you think either.
Posted by Purplegoo on 2012-06-27 23:05:55
You can do better than that! ;)
Although, you'll probably get a bite...
Although, you'll probably get a bite...
Posted by dode74 on 2012-06-27 23:15:55
"Seriously, get a new shtick, already dode! There are other, more sullied areas of this here interweb for you to post that and VoodooMike to argue the toss!"
I neither know nor care where VM is, and your comment is no argument and merely a dismissal.
While you may believe that TV MM is the way to go, others don't, and you have absolutely no remit to dismiss the case without any evidence whatsoever, no matter how politely you come across - laughing off arguments is nothing more than a polite attempt at dismissal, after all.
I have asked for evidence that minmaxing is an issue outside TV-based MM and am yet to see any (feel free to provide some, anyone!). If the rules work fine in other environments and there are issues in the *house ruled* TV matching environment which FUMBBL and Cyanide use then it's quite clear to anyone with half a brain what the issue is, and also quite clear what some of the options are to do something about it, one of which you have mentioned already (TS - which is a different matching criteria).
I neither know nor care where VM is, and your comment is no argument and merely a dismissal.
While you may believe that TV MM is the way to go, others don't, and you have absolutely no remit to dismiss the case without any evidence whatsoever, no matter how politely you come across - laughing off arguments is nothing more than a polite attempt at dismissal, after all.
I have asked for evidence that minmaxing is an issue outside TV-based MM and am yet to see any (feel free to provide some, anyone!). If the rules work fine in other environments and there are issues in the *house ruled* TV matching environment which FUMBBL and Cyanide use then it's quite clear to anyone with half a brain what the issue is, and also quite clear what some of the options are to do something about it, one of which you have mentioned already (TS - which is a different matching criteria).
Posted by Woodstock on 2012-06-27 23:46:27
Give it a season or 2 and the problem can be found in leagues here on fumbbl as well. Well... If the correct coaches try to do it. There is a difference between the mindless minmaxers and those use the combination with a good team build (ie what RO did with his chaos Chuck team).
Posted by dode74 on 2012-06-27 23:54:48
I keep being told that, but I am yet to be shown a single league where it is a problem, and there are a good few around which of a suitable age (80+ games).
I'm not talking about "the combo" though, I'm talking about minmaxing. It simply does not work in non TV-matched environments.
I'm not talking about "the combo" though, I'm talking about minmaxing. It simply does not work in non TV-matched environments.
Posted by Woodstock on 2012-06-28 01:43:50
You do know that by now the major leagues just finished one or two seasons since they transfered to CRP. That is about 15-20 games at most... You can do that in one or two days in blackbox if you want. You can get 100 games in one or two weeks in box easily... You can not do that in the big leagues, that would take a year or two. If not more...
So yes, I will keep saying that it could be a problem in league... it just takes to damn long to prove it. Not to mention you would need the right coach willing to do it, and build the team in the correct way.
You keep seeing it from the TT PoV. But you keep forgetting TT has one thing internet doesn't have. Social interaction. I know a lot of guys just don't build killer stuff in TT leagues because they meet the opponents face to face... It adds another dimension.
This counts both for minmaxing and cpomb btw... minmaxing in leagues is even better... Getting 400-500k inducements on top of a broken team, awesome!
So yes, I will keep saying that it could be a problem in league... it just takes to damn long to prove it. Not to mention you would need the right coach willing to do it, and build the team in the correct way.
You keep seeing it from the TT PoV. But you keep forgetting TT has one thing internet doesn't have. Social interaction. I know a lot of guys just don't build killer stuff in TT leagues because they meet the opponents face to face... It adds another dimension.
This counts both for minmaxing and cpomb btw... minmaxing in leagues is even better... Getting 400-500k inducements on top of a broken team, awesome!
Posted by koadah on 2012-06-28 02:02:18
But hasn't this been in since LRB5?
So people on TT and online have already played a lot of seasons.
And they never complained about any hostile organisms.
Oh wait...
So people on TT and online have already played a lot of seasons.
And they never complained about any hostile organisms.
Oh wait...
Posted by Woodstock on 2012-06-28 04:30:47
LRB5 online? Where? When did it start... just asking because I dont know.
I also think the combo has been underrated a long time, even here on FUMBBL. The first complaints I saw concerning online play were about claw, and nothing more.
I also think the combo has been underrated a long time, even here on FUMBBL. The first complaints I saw concerning online play were about claw, and nothing more.
Posted by dode74 on 2012-06-28 07:34:20
Well I know you'll probably say "but it's not FUMBBL" (special pleading), but there are plenty of Cyanide leagues which have been going long enough. My own league is in its 14th season with some teams having over 100 games. Having done a breakdown of which races have the most long lived teams, it is the bash teams - notably Chaos and Orcs. And yet in those 13 completed seasons Chaos have won once, in season 3, and Orcs twice. Lizards have won as much as Orcs, and WE have won 7 with HE winning once as well. We can put 5 of those WE wins down to a spectacularly good coach, but even this season the current top 3 are all lizards (different to the Lizard team which won previously), with Nurgle currently 4th and the only Chaos team in the top flight is thus far dead last with a 0-0-3 record.
I'll also point out that it's not a problem in R, for obvious reasons.
So no, I'm not seeing it from a TT POV. I'm seeing it from the POV of an online league, which is where I play the majority of my games, and it's simply not a problem. And until you actually provide some evidence that it is a problem then all you are doing is extrapolating based on data from other sources, namely B, which themselves may be the source of the problem - you're speculating.
I'll also point out that it's not a problem in R, for obvious reasons.
So no, I'm not seeing it from a TT POV. I'm seeing it from the POV of an online league, which is where I play the majority of my games, and it's simply not a problem. And until you actually provide some evidence that it is a problem then all you are doing is extrapolating based on data from other sources, namely B, which themselves may be the source of the problem - you're speculating.
Posted by Woodstock on 2012-06-28 14:19:49
I'm not impressed with cyanide, not the game or the coaching skill. Missing Chaos Dwarfs and Pact? Long lists of bugs that aren't getting fixed. I heard that Blitz! is still not working correct after 3 years?!
But looking at your league stats, I am a little surprised. Of course I have no rosters, match reports, or any information about the skill level of coaches... But I would have expected that Chaos would've been more dominant.
I already see signs of what I expect here on FUMBBL. Will take a few more seasons to have teams that will destroy any thing they come across.
But looking at your league stats, I am a little surprised. Of course I have no rosters, match reports, or any information about the skill level of coaches... But I would have expected that Chaos would've been more dominant.
I already see signs of what I expect here on FUMBBL. Will take a few more seasons to have teams that will destroy any thing they come across.
Posted by dode74 on 2012-06-28 15:26:28
Yeah, the game is in a poor state and has been getting very little support. I guess that's what happens when it is made under duress. I live in hope of it improving and play there because that's where my league is. Pick-up games I get here when I get time. CDs and Underworld are coming, and will, I suspect, be the last thing added, but I hope not. If you mean the KO result of Blitz then I believe that's working fine, afaik.
It's a tad elitist to say that the coaches here are better ("not impressed with...the coaching skill" suggests that's your stance) since there's no real evidence of that. What I could do is take a look at a few coaches who play B and FOL and give a comparison of how they've done within the two populations, but that would just be for purposes of willy-waving, I think. and I'd be surprised if it changes any opinions. The data is out there for anyone who wants to do it, anyway. Without looking at further data I'd probably agree that there are more poor coaches on Cyanide MM than there are here in B, but I doubt the same is true in leagues.
Rosters and match reports can be got from BBManager (3rd party app which does what the game itself should do), with details down to each die roll and the replays themselves if you want them - that should help assess coach skill, if you can be bothered.
If you're seeing signs of what you expected to see then please make them known - it's evidence, which I've asked for and am yet to see.
It's a tad elitist to say that the coaches here are better ("not impressed with...the coaching skill" suggests that's your stance) since there's no real evidence of that. What I could do is take a look at a few coaches who play B and FOL and give a comparison of how they've done within the two populations, but that would just be for purposes of willy-waving, I think. and I'd be surprised if it changes any opinions. The data is out there for anyone who wants to do it, anyway. Without looking at further data I'd probably agree that there are more poor coaches on Cyanide MM than there are here in B, but I doubt the same is true in leagues.
Rosters and match reports can be got from BBManager (3rd party app which does what the game itself should do), with details down to each die roll and the replays themselves if you want them - that should help assess coach skill, if you can be bothered.
If you're seeing signs of what you expected to see then please make them known - it's evidence, which I've asked for and am yet to see.
Posted by Woodstock on 2012-06-28 16:53:29
There is no evidence yet... It will take another 20-30 weeks before I can say something useful. So this discussion is pretty much pointless.
Well, we all knew that. People will just keep playing any way, no matter what will happen. :)
Well, we all knew that. People will just keep playing any way, no matter what will happen. :)
Posted by dode74 on 2012-06-28 18:31:19
Ok, so it's pure speculation. So long as we are clear on that. Currently there is no evidence whatsoever that CPOMB or Minmax is or will "dominate" leagues.
I'll ask again in 6 months or so. Of course, my own league will be a further 3 seasons old as well, so that may provide some data too.
I'll ask again in 6 months or so. Of course, my own league will be a further 3 seasons old as well, so that may provide some data too.
Posted by Arktoris on 2012-06-29 05:57:57
why not just foul the guys that pile on? get a dirty player early on and take em out.