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2015-06-12 04:43:46
rating 4.2
40 coaches online • Server time: 12:14
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2015-06-12 04:43:46
17 votes, rating 4.2
17 votes, rating 4.2
When I was a younger man, I could find a game in the US evening time / Aussie day time
Thank goodness I still work midnight shift.
However; on weeks like this, when I'm in training, I work 0600 - 1600 US Central time. So, I take the wife for a nice steak, and have a few large tumblers of whiskey. Then I look for a box game, and...
Crickets...
Perhaps we need to start targeting the younger crowd.
I've taught 2 of my 3 boys (ages 11 & 17 now) how to play Blood Bowl here on Fumbbl. Sadly, neither took to it with any zeal. But that happens.
Any suggestions on how to bring in new blood & keep it?
However; on weeks like this, when I'm in training, I work 0600 - 1600 US Central time. So, I take the wife for a nice steak, and have a few large tumblers of whiskey. Then I look for a box game, and...
Crickets...
Perhaps we need to start targeting the younger crowd.
I've taught 2 of my 3 boys (ages 11 & 17 now) how to play Blood Bowl here on Fumbbl. Sadly, neither took to it with any zeal. But that happens.
Any suggestions on how to bring in new blood & keep it?
Comments
Posted by pubstar on 2015-06-12 04:48:42
Honestly, tabletop is the best recruiting tool ever. The nice minis, the board, the cards, all of that was what I found super appealing. There's a dilution of fluff on Fumbbl, especially for a new player. I don't think I would have stuck with it if Fumbbl was my first exposure to Blood Bowl.
Posted by Sionis on 2015-06-12 05:06:56
Flashy .gifs should do it.
Posted by Cavetroll on 2015-06-12 05:17:32
I wonder why they didn't take to it. Did you introduce them to the box first?
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-06-12 05:18:23
That would have been silly.
No, we just played vs each other in League!
Sure I may have won 99/100 times, but who's counting :D
No, we just played vs each other in League!
Sure I may have won 99/100 times, but who's counting :D
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-06-12 05:21:36
Not clue how to bring in more people, but maybe we could get some of the people that are already here to give the division another go?
The current image that BlackBox has is a major obstacle though. All the bravado has probably dampened a lot of people enthusiasm to give it a try. Shame really, because Box really is a ton of fun.
It's the only thing I could come up with at the moment. Not very helpful I know. But I agree with you. Activating to the sound of crickets isn't that much fun. :(
The current image that BlackBox has is a major obstacle though. All the bravado has probably dampened a lot of people enthusiasm to give it a try. Shame really, because Box really is a ton of fun.
It's the only thing I could come up with at the moment. Not very helpful I know. But I agree with you. Activating to the sound of crickets isn't that much fun. :(
Posted by pythrr on 2015-06-12 05:48:57
is "a nice steak" a euphemism?
Posted by koadah on 2015-06-12 06:51:00
My lads didn't take to it either. The youngest will play once in a while but Fumbbl has to compete with FIFA, GTA, NBA2K15, Football Manager & Civilization e.t.c.
I hear that there is not much activity in US evenings in any division. I wonder if people are more or less likely to activate for Box if they know that Bill is about. ;)
@Mr_Foulscumm: You say that Box's image is an obstacle. Is the image inaccurate? Personally I can't see myself playing much Box any time soon.
I hear that there is not much activity in US evenings in any division. I wonder if people are more or less likely to activate for Box if they know that Bill is about. ;)
@Mr_Foulscumm: You say that Box's image is an obstacle. Is the image inaccurate? Personally I can't see myself playing much Box any time soon.
Posted by Cloggy on 2015-06-12 06:57:33
I would say the NAF tournies might help. That is of course conditional on us making this place seem fun, and that is where I think we have gone wrong in the recent past. Too much petty bickering and macho [B]S in the forum and blogs means this place hasto look awful to someone just coming in.
Posted by Badoek on 2015-06-12 07:26:34
Good point Cloggy.
Posted by Strider84 on 2015-06-12 07:43:00
I figure they will play what their friends play. So he should invite 3 friends to battle it out between rookies and you help with the rulez. Once the competition snaps they want to get better to beat their friends so they start practising on fumbbl. (in theory :-))
Posted by paradocks on 2015-06-12 08:09:13
If the children think they're too good for blood bowl, then they're too good for breakfasts and dinners too I say...
Posted by Meltyman on 2015-06-12 08:43:39
Cyanide's version appeals to new players mostly because it looks better. Fumbbl seems really boring at first, if you are used to modern games :(
Tabletop also works way better as said above.
Tabletop also works way better as said above.
Posted by PurpleChest on 2015-06-12 09:31:00
people expect to win. And its going to be a long time on fumbbl before you are in that position. We dont even have a single player version or bad bot to beat up and boost your ego. If you took up a game and lost 29/30 would you play on?
Posted by bghandras on 2015-06-12 09:32:32
If you want to teach your kids, then learn how to lose. (Note that although I know that, I am bad at losing nevertheless.)
Posted by Sammler_der_Seelen on 2015-06-12 10:50:14
Anytime i Play vs a new coach on tabletop i use Flings or gobbos And let them Drive with norse or something other Bad Team for me.always trying to Give a good game ,make funny Fail Moves And i dont wanna win These Games ( maybe 1/10 of them are Wins ).best Games the Even One ( 2:2 And alot injuries ).
Posted by phoenix20 on 2015-06-12 11:13:55
Cyanide gets slammed over here and in some cases it is deserved. However it is a valuable tool for bringing fresh blood into the game some of whom will wander over here after a while.
This is pure speculation (if anyone has some hard facts then please share) but I would expect the majority of FUMBBLers either played TT at some point, even if it was once when they were a kid, were introduced by someone that plays FUMBBL already, or wandered over from Cyanide. Its not really something that you just stumble upon if you have never even heard of BB. With a presence on steam, a regular participant of steam sales and plenty of column inches on games websites about BB2 Cyanide has a big part to play in grabbing new players from the next generation of PC gamers.
The next year is a golden chance for FUMBBL to increase its player base by raising its profile in the various Cyanide forums. The BB2 release will bring new people into the game and regardless of whether its a good or bad experience for them it is an opportunity for FUMBBL to feed off that.
This is pure speculation (if anyone has some hard facts then please share) but I would expect the majority of FUMBBLers either played TT at some point, even if it was once when they were a kid, were introduced by someone that plays FUMBBL already, or wandered over from Cyanide. Its not really something that you just stumble upon if you have never even heard of BB. With a presence on steam, a regular participant of steam sales and plenty of column inches on games websites about BB2 Cyanide has a big part to play in grabbing new players from the next generation of PC gamers.
The next year is a golden chance for FUMBBL to increase its player base by raising its profile in the various Cyanide forums. The BB2 release will bring new people into the game and regardless of whether its a good or bad experience for them it is an opportunity for FUMBBL to feed off that.
Posted by Wizfall on 2015-06-12 11:59:13
I find Fumbbl competitive and a bad welcome to the game for rookies player.
Everything is looked at what is the most efficient to the extreme and rationalized.
That's good for experienced players but kind of kill the fluff and not "too serious/cool" part of the game.
Fumbbl makes for strictly restricted way to build a team that make the game feel more dull/less fun.
So for the rookies who do not take it as "seriously" , it could be a big disappointment especially when in top of his lack of coaching skill he is atomized by superior minmaxed powerbuild.
Everything is looked at what is the most efficient to the extreme and rationalized.
That's good for experienced players but kind of kill the fluff and not "too serious/cool" part of the game.
Fumbbl makes for strictly restricted way to build a team that make the game feel more dull/less fun.
So for the rookies who do not take it as "seriously" , it could be a big disappointment especially when in top of his lack of coaching skill he is atomized by superior minmaxed powerbuild.
Posted by Throweck on 2015-06-12 12:32:21
I think phoenix is right in terms of it being a Golden opportunity for recruitment. Perhaps we need a task team who will be playing BB2 to fly the flag?!
Fumbbl is so unique imo. The level of skill is greater here than what I have experienced on Cyanide (although that is limited). I don't think endless threads about cpomb/minmax/scheduler do us any favours at all, however they are an ever present and valid discussion points.
I came from a TT back ground myself many years ago thinking I would pick it up easily again. Man it was tough! akaRenton is already addressing this with his welcome messages to newbies.
I think we will see a rise in younger coaches due to this BB2 but I don't think it will be ground breaking. Kids love their shiny graphics right? Like Kaodah says, we have a lot of competition. My guess is that we play here because we have a link to the game emotionally/through nostalgia/friends that play/etc. If you are looking for a pick up and play game as a youngster, what would you do?
I love this site. I have tried to have extended breaks at times but just can't seem to leave it alone.
I don't think the problem will be recruiting new coaches, I think the problem will be (as Bill said) keeping them.
Fumbbl is so unique imo. The level of skill is greater here than what I have experienced on Cyanide (although that is limited). I don't think endless threads about cpomb/minmax/scheduler do us any favours at all, however they are an ever present and valid discussion points.
I came from a TT back ground myself many years ago thinking I would pick it up easily again. Man it was tough! akaRenton is already addressing this with his welcome messages to newbies.
I think we will see a rise in younger coaches due to this BB2 but I don't think it will be ground breaking. Kids love their shiny graphics right? Like Kaodah says, we have a lot of competition. My guess is that we play here because we have a link to the game emotionally/through nostalgia/friends that play/etc. If you are looking for a pick up and play game as a youngster, what would you do?
I love this site. I have tried to have extended breaks at times but just can't seem to leave it alone.
I don't think the problem will be recruiting new coaches, I think the problem will be (as Bill said) keeping them.
Posted by koadah on 2015-06-12 12:33:03
We've lost half our user base since BB1 launched. Though we were stuck on LRB4 at the time, we haven't gained that many back in terms of games played.
I am sure that some people play both. If BB2 is a better product than BB1 it could be bad news.
Maybe by going after a bigger/younger audience they will alienate some of the old fogies and we can pick up some of those.
I think that Fumbbl has lost a lot of the buzz it had when chat was busy. I think that we need a new web site based chat client.
The two 'competitive' divisions don't appeal to me much at the moment. But really, the number of games played has been pretty steady for quite a long time. So, I don't see much changing there any time soon.
There has been a lot of work put into League division changes. If anything, those could suck even more people out of the 'competitive' divisions.
Bill doesn't play Ranked. And slags it off quite regularly. ;) That may work during European hours but during quiet times coaches need to be in the same division and to not be so picky.
I think that the separation of the divisions is a problem. I would say that there should be more cross division tournaments. IMO XFL & RRR could be cross division.
The Tour was a lot of fun back in the day. A cross division Tour could inject a bit of interest. Maybe at the expense of some of the minors.
On the other hand. I suppose if you don't do anything about CPOMB I might still not be able to find the enthusiasm to play. ;)
I am sure that some people play both. If BB2 is a better product than BB1 it could be bad news.
Maybe by going after a bigger/younger audience they will alienate some of the old fogies and we can pick up some of those.
I think that Fumbbl has lost a lot of the buzz it had when chat was busy. I think that we need a new web site based chat client.
The two 'competitive' divisions don't appeal to me much at the moment. But really, the number of games played has been pretty steady for quite a long time. So, I don't see much changing there any time soon.
There has been a lot of work put into League division changes. If anything, those could suck even more people out of the 'competitive' divisions.
Bill doesn't play Ranked. And slags it off quite regularly. ;) That may work during European hours but during quiet times coaches need to be in the same division and to not be so picky.
I think that the separation of the divisions is a problem. I would say that there should be more cross division tournaments. IMO XFL & RRR could be cross division.
The Tour was a lot of fun back in the day. A cross division Tour could inject a bit of interest. Maybe at the expense of some of the minors.
On the other hand. I suppose if you don't do anything about CPOMB I might still not be able to find the enthusiasm to play. ;)
Posted by koadah on 2015-06-12 12:42:44
@Wizfall: Fair point. I'd encourage people to play league but I suppose that would make your Ranked/Box situation worse.
On the other hand. Team lists & CR/Coach rank are freely available. New coaches do not need to lose their first 30 games. Maybe what they need is a better guide to finding a game.
That might upset the Legends though if no one but rookies will currently play them. ;)
On the other hand. Team lists & CR/Coach rank are freely available. New coaches do not need to lose their first 30 games. Maybe what they need is a better guide to finding a game.
That might upset the Legends though if no one but rookies will currently play them. ;)
Posted by Village_Idiot on 2015-06-12 13:04:49
Getting beat by superior players is demoralizing if that's the only thing on the menu. Speaking as a crappy (and newish) coach, it took me a long time before I had the skills to win the game. I think I've been closer to a 50% win/loss ratio lately, but I dare not check. ;)
Before I got to that point, I quit for a while due to the apparent futility of it all. I still get like that sometimes: if the issue is my lack of skill, and I'm not improving, and no one can really verbalize what I ought to do differently, then why bother?
Possible solution: kiddie pool. BBowl is one of the hardest games I've ever encountered, and if you want growth, you'll have to protect the newbies from vets. It takes a special kind of person to take a pounding each time without hope, and most of us humans aren't that special.
I can't quite visualize what that'd look like, beyond a return of the academy. A "you must be this tall (in CR) to enter" mechanism might intend to protect a player from their own hubris in R or B, but seems likely to irritate: no one likes barriers.
Other thoughts: FAQs: nuubs don't read them, only vets. How about some nice how-to vids? They're all the rage nowadays. Could be done on the game itself, or the client. 1-5 minutes each.
Before I got to that point, I quit for a while due to the apparent futility of it all. I still get like that sometimes: if the issue is my lack of skill, and I'm not improving, and no one can really verbalize what I ought to do differently, then why bother?
Possible solution: kiddie pool. BBowl is one of the hardest games I've ever encountered, and if you want growth, you'll have to protect the newbies from vets. It takes a special kind of person to take a pounding each time without hope, and most of us humans aren't that special.
I can't quite visualize what that'd look like, beyond a return of the academy. A "you must be this tall (in CR) to enter" mechanism might intend to protect a player from their own hubris in R or B, but seems likely to irritate: no one likes barriers.
Other thoughts: FAQs: nuubs don't read them, only vets. How about some nice how-to vids? They're all the rage nowadays. Could be done on the game itself, or the client. 1-5 minutes each.
Posted by albinv on 2015-06-12 13:22:00
What Cloggy said.
Also the whole powergaming situation ofc.
It isnt attractive for the majority of rookies - or in the long run will drive quite a few away since they cant hold up to it or may indeed find out that it isnt what they are looking for to the degree you find it on Fumbbl.
Of course its also among the things that make Fumbbl special. A two sided sword quite obviously.
If you look at it systematically, then you will find that reconnecting the Fumbbl elite/ vets with the noobs/ rookies again by composed and organized measures should ofc help addressing the issues - theoretically.
Fumbbl would need to pool its ressources (coaches) really and make it a planned and concerted community maneuver to install these structures in a stable way. Also the timing to kick something like that off needs to be right.
If a site like Fumbbl evolves in a powergaming/ elitist path for years the threat of losing touch to its player base is just inherent systematically and that cant be denied.
So far i think the issues has only been addressed by very very few coaches who more or less stand alone. Therefor their efforts must suffer from structural weakness and are doomed to perform mediocre or to die off in the long run - no matter how hard they try. A Don Quixote mission. It isnt hard to see, that at times, those people have also reaped bad reviews/ comments for their effort ofc. A quite frustrating endeavour at times i imagine.
On the other hand: quite obviously, aside all powergaming and elitist attitudes, the site is also - and always was - full of helpful and friendly people who are more than willing to help beginners. Fumbbl needs to communicate and come up with a real plan that will install structures that can be maintained in the long run. So far there only have been these lonely efforts by a few that more or less - ofc - always had to end a bit in chaos. They pop up and fade out again. More or less.
There needs to be a "one time only" plan and a concerted community effort to put it in action.
Now obviously Fumbbl is healthy and there is no real decline of players.
But quite obviously a lot of us would still like to do better.
Also the whole powergaming situation ofc.
It isnt attractive for the majority of rookies - or in the long run will drive quite a few away since they cant hold up to it or may indeed find out that it isnt what they are looking for to the degree you find it on Fumbbl.
Of course its also among the things that make Fumbbl special. A two sided sword quite obviously.
If you look at it systematically, then you will find that reconnecting the Fumbbl elite/ vets with the noobs/ rookies again by composed and organized measures should ofc help addressing the issues - theoretically.
Fumbbl would need to pool its ressources (coaches) really and make it a planned and concerted community maneuver to install these structures in a stable way. Also the timing to kick something like that off needs to be right.
If a site like Fumbbl evolves in a powergaming/ elitist path for years the threat of losing touch to its player base is just inherent systematically and that cant be denied.
So far i think the issues has only been addressed by very very few coaches who more or less stand alone. Therefor their efforts must suffer from structural weakness and are doomed to perform mediocre or to die off in the long run - no matter how hard they try. A Don Quixote mission. It isnt hard to see, that at times, those people have also reaped bad reviews/ comments for their effort ofc. A quite frustrating endeavour at times i imagine.
On the other hand: quite obviously, aside all powergaming and elitist attitudes, the site is also - and always was - full of helpful and friendly people who are more than willing to help beginners. Fumbbl needs to communicate and come up with a real plan that will install structures that can be maintained in the long run. So far there only have been these lonely efforts by a few that more or less - ofc - always had to end a bit in chaos. They pop up and fade out again. More or less.
There needs to be a "one time only" plan and a concerted community effort to put it in action.
Now obviously Fumbbl is healthy and there is no real decline of players.
But quite obviously a lot of us would still like to do better.
Posted by Kam on 2015-06-12 14:31:23
"people expect to win. And its going to be a long time on fumbbl before you are in that position. We dont even have a single player version or bad bot to beat up and boost your ego. If you took up a game and lost 29/30 would you play on?"
I actually have, and I still keep losing 50% of my games with my favourite teams (Stunties), including to objectively weaker coaches. And yeah, it's sometimes frustrating, I have to admit, but such an imbalanced game (by design!) ought to be frustrating at times. You just have to learn to appreciate what makes it great - from my point of view: the fluff behind.
As for the new coaches... I've played many. Some of them can't stand being beaten by flings and rage-quit - truth be told, I don't give a damn about them. But I always try to make the game enjoyable for them, by the sole fact of playing a Stunty team, or by chatting, or simply by not stalling during 6 turns to give them a chance, and the majority tell me that was a fun game, even when they lose.
However, shame on the coaches who stick to tier 1 teams and prey on rookies to completely annihilate them. And shame on the "Mr Nice Guy" vets who turn into total jerks as soon as they have a couple of bad rolls versus a rookie. I truly believe they are the real problem.
I actually have, and I still keep losing 50% of my games with my favourite teams (Stunties), including to objectively weaker coaches. And yeah, it's sometimes frustrating, I have to admit, but such an imbalanced game (by design!) ought to be frustrating at times. You just have to learn to appreciate what makes it great - from my point of view: the fluff behind.
As for the new coaches... I've played many. Some of them can't stand being beaten by flings and rage-quit - truth be told, I don't give a damn about them. But I always try to make the game enjoyable for them, by the sole fact of playing a Stunty team, or by chatting, or simply by not stalling during 6 turns to give them a chance, and the majority tell me that was a fun game, even when they lose.
However, shame on the coaches who stick to tier 1 teams and prey on rookies to completely annihilate them. And shame on the "Mr Nice Guy" vets who turn into total jerks as soon as they have a couple of bad rolls versus a rookie. I truly believe they are the real problem.
Posted by CroixFer on 2015-06-12 15:41:29
Provided the game statistics produced by the site are correct there is quite a solid average at around 10.000+ games/month for the last 20+ months. Furthermore, ranked are clearly averaging 5.000+ games/month and box is slightly declining to around 3.000+ keeping slight precedence on L which is al almost 2.500+.
Besides, 844 coaches played a game in the last week and 1404 in the last month of the 2.300+ who surfed the site.
Not that bad. Maybe not enough to get Bill a game in the box at certain hours but not unhealthy if you ask me.
Besides, 844 coaches played a game in the last week and 1404 in the last month of the 2.300+ who surfed the site.
Not that bad. Maybe not enough to get Bill a game in the box at certain hours but not unhealthy if you ask me.
Posted by Wizfall on 2015-06-12 16:04:03
Box is not declining at all.
Box is exploding more and more this year, +30% games played in April and +50% in May compared to last year same period.
The trend this already very good this year with much more game played that last year and it gets better and better.
Box is exploding more and more this year, +30% games played in April and +50% in May compared to last year same period.
The trend this already very good this year with much more game played that last year and it gets better and better.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-06-12 16:23:14
too many cpomb teams maybe?
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-06-12 16:28:24
There are some, but it's really not much of an issue these days.
Posted by Sammler_der_Seelen on 2015-06-12 16:33:53
i liked the old rule that the first 4 games dont count for the cr formula ,that way you was able to test a team and play in a more friendly atmosphere as it not really count what you do.(btw unranked was a great place for me past in the days but thats for what league is now)
Posted by MattDakka on 2015-06-12 16:34:50
Some?
Every time I randomly check the current Box games, there are at least 3+ Chaos/Nurgle teams playing.
Boredom at its finest.
Every time I randomly check the current Box games, there are at least 3+ Chaos/Nurgle teams playing.
Boredom at its finest.
Posted by koadah on 2015-06-12 16:36:27
@Mr_Foulscumm: But you rarely seem to play over 1500. Is that why it is not really an issue?
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-06-12 17:33:11
I play more than anyone, in the Box, and I find enough variety.
I think my stats are the largest sample size, if you're interested.
I think my stats are the largest sample size, if you're interested.
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-06-12 17:38:10
In case everyone is too lazy to look them up I've played against:
168 Zons, 986 Chaos, 615 C Dorks, 237 Pact, 313 Darkies, 593 Dorks, 108 Elves, 72 Gobbos, 63 Flings, 183 High Elf, 357 Humans, 435 Khemri, 294 Lizzies, 372 Necros, 241 Norse, 607 Nurgs, 126 Ogres, 730 Orcs, 313 Skaven, 77 Slaan, 364 Undead, 90 Underworld, 116 Vamps, and 243 Woodies.
168 Zons, 986 Chaos, 615 C Dorks, 237 Pact, 313 Darkies, 593 Dorks, 108 Elves, 72 Gobbos, 63 Flings, 183 High Elf, 357 Humans, 435 Khemri, 294 Lizzies, 372 Necros, 241 Norse, 607 Nurgs, 126 Ogres, 730 Orcs, 313 Skaven, 77 Slaan, 364 Undead, 90 Underworld, 116 Vamps, and 243 Woodies.
Posted by koadah on 2015-06-12 17:46:02
LOL. you play enough games skew the diversity yourself. ;)
In how many games were you using CPOMBers? ;)
Can you give us those stats again but only counting games over 1500?
I don't think people are bothered about playing vs TV1000 chaos. :)
Low TV/Young team diversity sounds fine to me.
In how many games were you using CPOMBers? ;)
Can you give us those stats again but only counting games over 1500?
I don't think people are bothered about playing vs TV1000 chaos. :)
Low TV/Young team diversity sounds fine to me.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-06-12 18:11:27
A game is a game, no matter the TV. Or did I miss a memo?
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-06-12 18:16:44
Btw, I never understood why you use 1500 tv as an important marker for games and game statistics. It seems fairly arbitrary too me. :)
Posted by koadah on 2015-06-12 18:32:53
Almost all my active Box teams are over 1500 and I don't see any point creating new ones.
A TV1000 game is different to a TV2000 games.
I prefer to play my favourite teams rather than rinse repeat.
A TV1000 game is different to a TV2000 games.
I prefer to play my favourite teams rather than rinse repeat.
Posted by Beerox on 2015-06-12 18:35:44
Boobs.
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-06-12 18:39:05
I find it a bit chadish (lame, or insert whatever you like) that a large number of boxers make new teams play 5 games (often 5 wins) then retire, and make new.
But I guess those are the ones measuring their e-members or "CR".
My TV's span from 700 to 2600 or so. I'm not breaking those stats down.
I've probably played about 1/4 of my games with clawpombers, or less.
But I guess those are the ones measuring their e-members or "CR".
My TV's span from 700 to 2600 or so. I'm not breaking those stats down.
I've probably played about 1/4 of my games with clawpombers, or less.
Posted by CroixFer on 2015-06-12 19:31:13
25% clawpombers?
As far as I remember I never ever fielded a single clawed player in this site or in BB in general.
Not a box fan myself, but still 0% in any division. Not that much of a mark for many coaches out there, I am pretty sure but I find using 2 or 3 tier teams the best way to find a game. Though I find sending them into box too much of a handicapp for 90 min of my spare time.
As far as I remember I never ever fielded a single clawed player in this site or in BB in general.
Not a box fan myself, but still 0% in any division. Not that much of a mark for many coaches out there, I am pretty sure but I find using 2 or 3 tier teams the best way to find a game. Though I find sending them into box too much of a handicapp for 90 min of my spare time.
Posted by koadah on 2015-06-12 19:59:22
@Bill: It's not what I want to do but new teams are what you get when you buy the game. TT tournament teams rarely go past six games. I doubt that many people do it because of CR. IMO it is probably they just people like low TV.
most teams do NOT play 10 games. Some will retire because of injury. It is not purely about min/maxing.
Some others will retire at 15-30 games. That may partly be down to getting bored and partly to avoid big CPOMBers.
The Sprint still shows a lot of CPOMB active at the arbitrary 1400+
http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bb/stats/sprint.html?sprintId=159
most teams do NOT play 10 games. Some will retire because of injury. It is not purely about min/maxing.
Some others will retire at 15-30 games. That may partly be down to getting bored and partly to avoid big CPOMBers.
The Sprint still shows a lot of CPOMB active at the arbitrary 1400+
http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bb/stats/sprint.html?sprintId=159
Posted by MonkeyTrumpet on 2015-06-12 22:01:37
What about extending the handicap system to incorporate player skill?
You'd get inducements for the difference in team value but also for the difference in the coaches' abilities (which might average out - an experienced coach with a rookie team could play a rookie coach with an experienced team and no-one would get any inducements... or they both would).
New players would then get the extra help they might need.
You wouldn't have to do it in all the divisions... just league or just ranked or whatever. I don't want to mention the box; i've never been in there.
You'd get inducements for the difference in team value but also for the difference in the coaches' abilities (which might average out - an experienced coach with a rookie team could play a rookie coach with an experienced team and no-one would get any inducements... or they both would).
New players would then get the extra help they might need.
You wouldn't have to do it in all the divisions... just league or just ranked or whatever. I don't want to mention the box; i've never been in there.
Posted by JohnnyFeyev on 2015-06-12 22:11:33
As a newish player of Blood Bowl (under 25 games on FUMBBL, about 2 years playing against horrible AI on ios) I won't even attempt to play in Box because of the mystique of it all. Even though I really don't care about winning or losing I find from reading the forums that there are some arrogant people that I don't think would be very much fun to play against. I could be completely wrong, and they're just acting like jerks on the forums because that's what forums are for, but Box just seems ultra-competitive for the younger people to get into to. Also, with my wife and kid, I really can ever only play during my lunch hour in US Central time, so I only ever see the same twelve people online for Ranked or League. Anyway, that's just my two cents or halfpenny or whatever the saying translates to in Europe.
Posted by mrt1212 on 2015-06-12 22:41:35
There is no greater joy than coaching a team through thick and thin. Attrition sucks, which is why I diversified my Skaven teams but honestly, the game I had against Dunenzed with both our flagship teams (Roquefort Runners vs. Sons of Brutus) and the way the game played out was just terrific entertainment even though I lost.
This is why I play Box - the teams, the struggle, the camaraderie among like minded coaches who want to play with long lived teams through thick and thin.
I admit, I'm an anomaly and I take abuse with a smile (but not failures) but just looking at this as a journey of a game where you win some, lose some, and always have a mind for rebuilding and playing to win and to learn to get better makes it fun for me.
But yeah, we need more North Americans specifically those in Central to Pacific Time Zones.
This is why I play Box - the teams, the struggle, the camaraderie among like minded coaches who want to play with long lived teams through thick and thin.
I admit, I'm an anomaly and I take abuse with a smile (but not failures) but just looking at this as a journey of a game where you win some, lose some, and always have a mind for rebuilding and playing to win and to learn to get better makes it fun for me.
But yeah, we need more North Americans specifically those in Central to Pacific Time Zones.
Posted by akaRenton on 2015-06-13 00:12:31
To be honest I've tried box and had poor experiences. I may have been unlucky, but it certainly made me empathise with the image people have of it.
Lack of chat is a problem for sure, I've tried going on IRC a lot recently but have yet to see more than 1 or two sentences exchanged. IRC is clunky and outdated (yes I know there are benefits to it too), and probably puts off quite a few of the younger coaches who have grown up with social media sites which are far slicker with more intuitive interfaces.
For me the initial attraction was to play a strategy game with an element of randomness and humour. What kept me coming back is fluff. Silly teams, logos, themes, player bios and a handful of very colourful characters amongst the coaches like The Great Gobbo, Rabe, Carlo etc.
Without the fluff and people I can think of at least 5 games I would rather play over BB without even having to ponder on it.
It would be nice if more people that bemoan the state of player levels actually do things to try and improve matters (not aimed at any particular person). Feels like for a lot of topics that's a lot of critics but few offering solutions.
Lack of chat is a problem for sure, I've tried going on IRC a lot recently but have yet to see more than 1 or two sentences exchanged. IRC is clunky and outdated (yes I know there are benefits to it too), and probably puts off quite a few of the younger coaches who have grown up with social media sites which are far slicker with more intuitive interfaces.
For me the initial attraction was to play a strategy game with an element of randomness and humour. What kept me coming back is fluff. Silly teams, logos, themes, player bios and a handful of very colourful characters amongst the coaches like The Great Gobbo, Rabe, Carlo etc.
Without the fluff and people I can think of at least 5 games I would rather play over BB without even having to ponder on it.
It would be nice if more people that bemoan the state of player levels actually do things to try and improve matters (not aimed at any particular person). Feels like for a lot of topics that's a lot of critics but few offering solutions.
Posted by akaRenton on 2015-06-13 00:13:24
Also, do we actively promote the site? I honestly have no clue. Not that hard to get a digital footprint out there these days.
Posted by licker on 2015-06-13 01:55:55
I've said it before and I'll say it as much as I want, because I'm right.
CR is a broken measurement of coaching ability and is a drag on the site over all. Yes yes, CR is not supposed to measure coaching ability, we've heard that a zillion times. But ask yourself this, if that's actually true, then what is the point of having CR at all?
Get rid of it. Not just don't show it, just remove it completely. Then you'll watch more teams get played for more games, you'll see less picking (from both directions) and, you might even see more box games get played in NA. Might. Box isn't so much about CR as Ranked is, but to the degree Bill mentioned about teams retiring after reaching their peak point, it might be.
Otherwise I'm of the opinion that BB simply is not very popular in the US (and Canada, and probably Mexico, and apparently all of south america). So not as many people are playing it as compared to Europe. It's also a bit hard to get into unless you were exposed earlier in life to. I'm not sure why that is, but I've tried to get some of my gamer friends to try it, and no matter if its TT, FUMBBL or Cyanide, it just doesn't resonate with them. Of course I'm in my 40s, as are most of my friends. I taught my oldest daughter (who is 16 now), but she had very little interest as well, even though she is a fan of gaming in general.
CR is a broken measurement of coaching ability and is a drag on the site over all. Yes yes, CR is not supposed to measure coaching ability, we've heard that a zillion times. But ask yourself this, if that's actually true, then what is the point of having CR at all?
Get rid of it. Not just don't show it, just remove it completely. Then you'll watch more teams get played for more games, you'll see less picking (from both directions) and, you might even see more box games get played in NA. Might. Box isn't so much about CR as Ranked is, but to the degree Bill mentioned about teams retiring after reaching their peak point, it might be.
Otherwise I'm of the opinion that BB simply is not very popular in the US (and Canada, and probably Mexico, and apparently all of south america). So not as many people are playing it as compared to Europe. It's also a bit hard to get into unless you were exposed earlier in life to. I'm not sure why that is, but I've tried to get some of my gamer friends to try it, and no matter if its TT, FUMBBL or Cyanide, it just doesn't resonate with them. Of course I'm in my 40s, as are most of my friends. I taught my oldest daughter (who is 16 now), but she had very little interest as well, even though she is a fan of gaming in general.
Posted by Jeffro on 2015-06-13 02:04:28
I think that everyone is glossing over the incredibly astute comment by Beerox earlier.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-06-13 03:54:51
About Cloggy making a good point?
Posted by grunth on 2015-06-13 09:21:04
+1 licker :)
removing CR is DA solution :)
removing CR is DA solution :)
Posted by Wizfall on 2015-06-13 10:59:38
An issue on Fumbbl is the pressure to minmax and to do what is the most efficient is big because lot of people do it.
It's not the same when you play with friends, it's an internet thing.
That can be frustrating for those who don't and like the fluff/originality/whatever as much as to win.
Eventually i find it's better to play as you like best and accept the consequences.
At least win or lose you will enjoy your team and then hopefully the game too.
Not sure there are really a lot of people caring about CR, i rather believe everybody care to win.
And CR is a good indicator of who is going to win the game IMHO but it's not the same as coach skill (big impact of race played and team building/amount of minmaxing used).
It's not the same when you play with friends, it's an internet thing.
That can be frustrating for those who don't and like the fluff/originality/whatever as much as to win.
Eventually i find it's better to play as you like best and accept the consequences.
At least win or lose you will enjoy your team and then hopefully the game too.
Not sure there are really a lot of people caring about CR, i rather believe everybody care to win.
And CR is a good indicator of who is going to win the game IMHO but it's not the same as coach skill (big impact of race played and team building/amount of minmaxing used).
Posted by Kam on 2015-06-13 14:39:48
Care to win or care to have a positive win / loss ratio?
Posted by Arktoris on 2015-06-13 18:29:54
I think the problem is we are no longer a community. We no longer talk to each other. Debate politics, goof off in Mirc, and have big discussions about fouling...is it part of the game, or cheesey exploit. This is what happens when you censor a room full of young men.
It becomes all about business, and then people move on to other activities more fun. Leaving the tumble weeds of fumbbl to roam.
It becomes all about business, and then people move on to other activities more fun. Leaving the tumble weeds of fumbbl to roam.
Posted by koadah on 2015-06-13 18:53:10
It would be good to have buzzing chat.
On the other hand. I prefer it as it is now than have to put up with some of the dickheads that we have had in the past.
On the other hand. I prefer it as it is now than have to put up with some of the dickheads that we have had in the past.
Posted by licker on 2015-06-13 19:13:34
With or without CR people will clearly be playing to win.
Without CR though, the measuring stick for winning gets removed, and the will to cheese the system to obtain a high CR is gone.
It's more about simply wanting to play games than it is about wanting to win games. We have tournaments and L for 'winning'. Since there is no ultimate point to games in R or B (in and of themselves anyway, aside from sprints...) then just taking out the lame system which CAUSES people to game the rules should be a big improvement.
Sprints and ELF and whatever have their own independent scoring systems anyway. As they should, and as they are what the open divisions should try to be.
Without CR though, the measuring stick for winning gets removed, and the will to cheese the system to obtain a high CR is gone.
It's more about simply wanting to play games than it is about wanting to win games. We have tournaments and L for 'winning'. Since there is no ultimate point to games in R or B (in and of themselves anyway, aside from sprints...) then just taking out the lame system which CAUSES people to game the rules should be a big improvement.
Sprints and ELF and whatever have their own independent scoring systems anyway. As they should, and as they are what the open divisions should try to be.
Posted by Rat_Salat on 2015-06-14 02:14:48
Bill, I have a hard time believing you don't honestly know the answer to this question. Are you trolling us, or do you actually not understand?
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-06-14 02:48:07
Rat, if you have the answers, please share.
I am not trolling.
I am not trolling.
Posted by Rat_Salat on 2015-06-14 03:21:03
Removing players from the pitch gives a large advantage.
Blackbox metagame correctly identifies player removal as an extremely effective strategy.
Player removal is extremely difficult to counter, and the best ways to avoid player removal (Armor Value, Blodge) have strong counters themselves.
Many players feel losing via player removal is unpleasant.
The skill combination "Mighty Blow, Claw, Piling on" has been identified as extremely effective. Many players believe this skill combination is too effective.
There is strong evidence that using the skill combination "Mighty Blow, Claw, Piling on" is widespread in higher-tv play in the blackbox.
Many players feel playing a team that has a large amount of the skill combination "Mighty Blow, Claw, Piling on" does not feel fair.
Many players feel playing a team that has a large amount of the skill combination "Mighty Blow, Claw, Piling on" is unpleasant.
Playing in Blackbox forces players to encounter players who win exclusively via player removal, which they find unpleasant, or unfair.
TL;DR: Many people feel blackbox has too many bash teams, especially at high TV.
Blackbox metagame correctly identifies player removal as an extremely effective strategy.
Player removal is extremely difficult to counter, and the best ways to avoid player removal (Armor Value, Blodge) have strong counters themselves.
Many players feel losing via player removal is unpleasant.
The skill combination "Mighty Blow, Claw, Piling on" has been identified as extremely effective. Many players believe this skill combination is too effective.
There is strong evidence that using the skill combination "Mighty Blow, Claw, Piling on" is widespread in higher-tv play in the blackbox.
Many players feel playing a team that has a large amount of the skill combination "Mighty Blow, Claw, Piling on" does not feel fair.
Many players feel playing a team that has a large amount of the skill combination "Mighty Blow, Claw, Piling on" is unpleasant.
Playing in Blackbox forces players to encounter players who win exclusively via player removal, which they find unpleasant, or unfair.
TL;DR: Many people feel blackbox has too many bash teams, especially at high TV.
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-06-14 03:50:05
I think Many people = Rat.
But that's fair.
It takes all kinds.
But that's fair.
It takes all kinds.
Posted by Rat_Salat on 2015-06-14 04:35:38
It's true, rat also believes these things.
But people mainly play bash in box. Pretending otherwise is just silly, because there is reams of data proving it.
But people mainly play bash in box. Pretending otherwise is just silly, because there is reams of data proving it.
Posted by licker on 2015-06-14 07:39:33
The correct statement is 'many people know that bb has too many bash teams at high TV'.
Just like global warming, there's simply no denying it.
You can still bicker over what's actually causing it if you want though. I think it's small penises.
Just like global warming, there's simply no denying it.
You can still bicker over what's actually causing it if you want though. I think it's small penises.
Posted by koadah on 2015-06-14 08:42:56
If you are implying that Rat is the only person to think that then yes. You are trolling. ;)
That is not the only issue with US time though. If there are no games then if a new player joins they will struggle to get a game so may as well go over to Cyanide.
It has been like this or a long time. Maybe Bill didn't notice due to slumming it with the Euros. ;)
Even if you do play a diverse set of teams these days your WMDs helped establish Box's rep. And they are still at it. ;)
Who else other than Bill, Jimmy and Calcium thinks that higher TV Box is just fine?
That is not the only issue with US time though. If there are no games then if a new player joins they will struggle to get a game so may as well go over to Cyanide.
It has been like this or a long time. Maybe Bill didn't notice due to slumming it with the Euros. ;)
Even if you do play a diverse set of teams these days your WMDs helped establish Box's rep. And they are still at it. ;)
Who else other than Bill, Jimmy and Calcium thinks that higher TV Box is just fine?
Posted by Rat_Salat on 2015-06-14 18:05:40
Probably DukeTyrion as well.
I'd love to hear from someone who plays high TV box, and doesn't play primarily Chaos/Nurgle who thinks things are just peachy.
I'd love to hear from someone who plays high TV box, and doesn't play primarily Chaos/Nurgle who thinks things are just peachy.
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-06-14 18:15:44
Lizards run a good game at high TV in the Box. Where is Cameronhawkins when you need him?
Posted by Rat_Salat on 2015-06-14 18:21:31
Left 26 weeks ago. I don't think he counts.
Posted by licker on 2015-06-14 22:59:24
And left B in no small part because of how dull it was for him to keep on seeing all those high TV killer claw teams. Not that he was complaining about win rates (at least not in the convos I had with him), but seeing the same set of teams from the same group of coaches over and over...
Well I don't blame him, largely why I stopped B myself. The best fix for it is really just to increase the player base, but frankly, I think that ship sailed.
And yes, you Bill, are part of the reason why it happened. As am I, as are all of us who spammed with dumb cpomb teams.
Still, to get it to have a chance at coming back we need to ditch CR. There's a lot more that would need to happen as well though, but I don't see any of it working.
Well I don't blame him, largely why I stopped B myself. The best fix for it is really just to increase the player base, but frankly, I think that ship sailed.
And yes, you Bill, are part of the reason why it happened. As am I, as are all of us who spammed with dumb cpomb teams.
Still, to get it to have a chance at coming back we need to ditch CR. There's a lot more that would need to happen as well though, but I don't see any of it working.
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-06-14 23:10:28
Yes Licker, I don't give a (Insert something silly or foul here) about CR.
I'd vote to have CR kept secret, viewable only by Christer.
I do try to keep it interesting by activating my woodies & now, my darkies.
Furthermore; I have a great time playing vs. chaos (especially with elves). They tend to lack the basic skills to be tackle heavy, and a lot of newer box coaches don't really have experience playing vs. agile teams.
So if everyone spams agility in the box, you'll see a big change. But change always starts with you. So we have to all do it.
I'd vote to have CR kept secret, viewable only by Christer.
I do try to keep it interesting by activating my woodies & now, my darkies.
Furthermore; I have a great time playing vs. chaos (especially with elves). They tend to lack the basic skills to be tackle heavy, and a lot of newer box coaches don't really have experience playing vs. agile teams.
So if everyone spams agility in the box, you'll see a big change. But change always starts with you. So we have to all do it.
Posted by koadah on 2015-06-14 23:21:21
I don't think that the Duke would be one. People play what best suits the division. Just because people are successful does mean that they think that the division is fine.
I sure don't think that ditching CR is going to help. ;)
If I think I have time to complete a Sprint I will use elfs or humans. If I don't I'll be using CPOMBers. CR has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
As it stands though Box is purely those times that I cannot find [L]eague opponent. ;)
I sure don't think that ditching CR is going to help. ;)
If I think I have time to complete a Sprint I will use elfs or humans. If I don't I'll be using CPOMBers. CR has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
As it stands though Box is purely those times that I cannot find [L]eague opponent. ;)
Posted by licker on 2015-06-15 21:17:11
Sure Bill, if everyone did something different...
I went on that soapbox before you know. Nothing changed.
Which is why I believe it may simply be too late for anything to matter. Anything short of radically redesigning Box to force multiple activations across different kinds of races.
That's not happening either. Sad really, because that would make Box into what it ultimately should be. Since it's nothing now, what harm would it do?
Hush euros... no one cares about you :)
I went on that soapbox before you know. Nothing changed.
Which is why I believe it may simply be too late for anything to matter. Anything short of radically redesigning Box to force multiple activations across different kinds of races.
That's not happening either. Sad really, because that would make Box into what it ultimately should be. Since it's nothing now, what harm would it do?
Hush euros... no one cares about you :)