So the idea that there are too many Legends or its too easy to build Legends surfaced in a thread on the forum and for the life of me I couldn't comprehend the argument. It was left mostly unqualified but I think the main thrust was it's too easy to build Clawpomber legends. I am sympathetic to that idea but I looked at Active Top 25 players by SPP and All Time, eliminated everyone below the Legend threshold and counted how many coaches and teams were represented among the Legendary players.
The conclusion I reached was that Legends are the product of 5 things working in harmony:
1. Coaching Time Investment, Commitment and Popularity
2. Skills to facilitate SPP accrual
3. Skills/Attributes to protect the player
4. Teams that can support them in their journey
Looking over the results it shouldn't surprise anyone that coaches who have spent a ton of time playing a team have generated several legends and thus have several players from the same team on the lists - bigGuy with Khemri and cameronhawkins with Lizardmen dominate the Legend list respectively. Kingvan is the name to know in Vampire Legends, although Azyx has the biggest one in debog. They put in tons of time with a few teams of those respective races to build them. Looking at Skaven, half the coaches have 2 entries on the All Time list. This is a little indication time playing with a team is shown as a factor in the creation of Legends.
One of the things to consider with time is that there is a bias towards some teams being unpopular because they become much more difficult the higher the TV they play. Amazons and Norse are two examples where coaches actively avoid letting the TV float which is sometimes synonymous with retirement of the team. Some coaches stick with one team and build players regardless of the team state - I'm on a few of the Top 25s in part because of my commitment to 1 team per race bar Skaven and keeping a blown apart team. My Vampires in particular have been demolished over and over again.
Another factor is the sheer popularity of certain teams results in a lengthy legend list both in Active and All Time. ARR teams have a higher incidence of 2-3 coaches having multiple legends for the same team type. CPOMB teams barring Underworld have some of the highest variety of coaches with an Active Legend represented. Wood Elves are way more popularly played than High Elf and Pro Elf and the size of the All-Time of it shows.
The 2nd factor of skill accrual is readily apparent. Both Elves and CPOMB teams should be obvious for why they get SPP - In general Elves score and pass while CPOMB does their namesake. Skaven is particularly diverse in the all time category with a Sam Axe - a Rat Ogre at #1 - and a pretty even variation of CPOMB Stormvermin and OTTD Gutter Runners rounding out the list.
One of the biggest perceived anomalies was the dearth of Dark Elf Legends. I looked at the 7, yes 7 All Time and here's what I found:
SPP Composition: CP-TD-INT-CS-MVP-Tot-Games
1 - Didaxit Iceshooter
SPP Composition: 33-40-1-33-20-321-137
Skills: +AG, Guard, +ST, +ST, Dodge, Leap
2 - El Drizzito II
SPP Composition: 31-48-1-7-10-241-92
Skills: Dodge, +AG, Leap, Sides Step, Strip Ball
3 - Isithral
SPP Comp: 79-25-0-6-6-196-83
Skills: +MA, Dodge, Nerves Of Steel, Pass, Block,+MA
4 - Aetherdark
SPP Comp: 3-12-0-59-7-192-75
Skills: Block, Mighty Blow, Piling On, Dodge, Tackle, +MA, Jump Up
5 - Hug
SPP Comp: 8-14-0-56-6-180-75
Skills: +ST, Dodge, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Side Step, Fend
6 - Frudu
SPP Comp: 6-37-0-11-8-179-74
Skills: Dodge, Side Step, Tackle, +MA, +MA, Diving Tackle
7 - Hirion
SPP Comp: 25-31-0-7-9-177-79
Skills: Dodge, Side Step, +AG, Leap, Strip Ball, Jump Up
I think what leapt out at me while reading this back was that +Stats are present on all of them but also that compared to the High Elf all time list (that's easy to compare, I just need to look at my Coca Loca for 3 of them, I'll link my spreadsheet at the end of the post so you can pour over the rest) - 6 out of 11 had MA8 or Higher along with +AG. In a small way this leads me to believe that MA8 with +AG is a great frame for working towards a legend. If we could really deep dive into this data (I wish I had more technical skills but I'm an IT manager, not an SQL or XML guru.), I would be interested to see the correlations between stats on elves and their propensity for reaching Legend.
Pro Elves similarly had at least half their Legends imbued with MA8 and +AG although one was just a +MA PITA defensive player. Elves in general are pretty cool in that they're varied enough across team type but not entirely by playstyle that we can more than guess as to the utility of different attributes in player building.
Ogres lacking General skill access to pick up Block limits the opportunities to get knockdowns as more and more players gain Block or Wrestle and Dodge as TV increases.
In the case of Gobbos, the sole non Troll Legend is a Pogoer with +ST and 5 normal skills - Surefeet, Sprint, Side Step, Catch, Diving Tackle.
The 3rd factor I mentioned was survivability. This might be seen in the low rates of active Legends for almost every AV7 team regardless of skills. Stunties? Say no more. With teams ability CPOMB whether easily or through luck like Necro, there are at LEAST, at LEAST, 135 Legends. There are so many Chaos Legends not on the Top 25 list that we can only guess the true number but...AV7 or less majority teams plus High Elves and less Vampires (there are no Thrall Legends, don't worry) only 53 are present. (Anecdotally I lost a Legend Wood Elf Catcher through a failed GFI with Sure Feet...Go Nuffle).
But lets look at another skill - Piling On. It would require a much more robust analysis than I can provide but it seems like Piling On not only results in SPP accrual but also protects players as well by taking themselves out of a reprisal block. Mostly because it's actually kind of hard to foul effectively for CAS and there are disincentives against it - baked into the mechanics of fouling and the positional peril of failing to CAS and fouling out or simply being available as a target for a reprisal block. Players with Jump Up are particularly adept at maximizing their PO usage and sometimes might even PO a KO for SPP (The Ole mrt1212 Special) Also in terms of TV efficiency for matchmaking, carrying a deep bench to foul and absorb blocks doesn't net returns unless you have <40k 0-12+ players.
+ST is another skill that not only helps with netting SPP in providing easier blocks, but it can make them a less viable target for blocks amongst the team.
Regen is obvious as is blodge in their benefits.
The 4th factor is team support. One of the negative aspects of the game is the propensity to have CAS snowball out of control. You lose a player, you lose positioning which leads to more opportunities to inflict CAS which further erodes positioning. I think one of the interesting teams in this regard is Underworld where there is the ability to have 2 CPOMBers easily but the rest of the team is tissue paper. Still they have CPOMB Legends with a few Trolls and Throwers thrown in with one nasty Gobbo too. In spite of the rest of the team you can build Legends with CPOMBers as the team crumbles around them. Teams with multiple CPOMBers can make it even easier to accrue SPP by making POs into CAS at all costs have very little downside risk and by physically eliminating reprisal blocks and fouls.
Conversely Ogres have plenty of hitting power but the team is so awful in providing support for blocks, and in protection (along with being relatively unpopular and players suffering from Boneheads.) It's simply very difficult to use POMB to get enough SPPs when you're giving up positioning that the rest of the team can't cover for and exposing yourself to fouls. Also, the snowball effect can really hit Ogres hard because as good as 6 ST5 is, it's fraught with Boneheads and blocks that don't yield knockdowns and POs.
The 5th factor is Nuffle. As I said prior I lost a Legend Wood Elf Catcher to a failed GFI with Sure Feet. That happens. I also had a Legend High Elf Catcher take a rock on a Turn 16 Kick Off (The Ole Timetis Special) and Apo from Killed to -AV. That Happens. There are countless coaches who lost a player within 3 SPP or less of hitting Legend and somehow came up short for any number of reasons.
So where am I going with this? I find notion that there "too many Legends" or "Legends are too easy to build" to be wrong based on the composition of Legends under CRP and Blackbox Matchmaking. I understand the devotion to wanting team composition to be different than the status quo because it fits with some preconceived notion of what team sports should look like. That's not a compelling enough reason in my estimation to rework the ruleset to include aging - barring major overhauls of some rosters, getting to Legend, much less Superstar for some players would be absurdly difficult.
I also contend that the issue of Legends among CPOMBers is strictly a CPOMBer problem. It combines all 5 factors gruesomely into a SPP generating machine. Devoted Coaches, with SPP generating skills, which also provide protection, and teammates are similarly capable in supporting them by lightening the load of being a target, while diminishing the opportunities for Nuffle's divine hand to strike them down.
I've stated several times that there are easy and elegant solutions to some of these issues with CPOMB. You can tweak all 4 factors:
- Make PO stun the POing player. More Opportunity Cost and exposure while limiting SPP generating opportunities.
- Give fouling more teeth and less downside risk.
- Limit CPOMB access to less players on the respective teams through making Strength access a doubles on any ST3 player with normal Mutation access. Guard Beastmen and Pestigors to support CPOMB CW and NW. Scratches SPP Generating Skills, Protection Skills and Team Support while leaving the kill stack intact. Obviously adjust player costs to reflect this.
I will repeat those ideas until all of you are vomiting out of your eyeballs with disgust at my shameless promotion of them.
Why did I even get on this kick? The future of BB rules discussion. I don't think it needs to be reinvented and have drastic changes made to it. Whatever everyone's personal ideal of what it BB should look and play like is, everything I've experienced in Box and gleaned in discussions makes me feel like a lot of ideas for improvement thrown around would function much better as a house rule or league rule. Aging, substitutions, practice squads, skill levels, splitting skills into two different ones, providing new counters to existing skills, TV measured in increments of 5 instead of 10. Again, these sound lovely for a league to fiddle with but would increase the complexity of the game in ways that would require a lot of rethinking of the game and not a lot of backwards compatibility with existing teams. One of the greatest tragedies of the move from LRB 4 to CRP to me was how it affected Ogre teams. It would be bad to have similar things happen again for FUMBBL even if years later things would settle again.
But I also question increased complexity where the learning curve to the game is already a deterrent to people adopting it especially when it comes to the metagaming of skill selection and team building. You can absolutely build yourself away from a competitive team through player purchase and skill selection - increasing the opportunity costs in this stage in the game would do a disservice to coaches who are inexperienced enough to not know better as well as coaches who aren't sociable enough to ask for help.
So yes, I spent a whole lot of time and effort at this juncture so I don't expend as much in the future repeatedly shooting down the same ideas and justifications for changing the game in drastic and unwarranted ways. I'll provide a link.
Legends, Coaches, Teams
All Time: 20,10,11
All Time: 25, 13,15
All Time: 25,17,20
All Time: 25,14,14
All Time: 7,5,5
All Time: 25,16,17
All Time: 9,6,6
All Time: 5,3,3
All Time: 8,5,5
All Time: 11,7,7
All Time: 25,14,17
All Time: 25,9,13
All Time: 25,7,10
All Time: 25,15,19
All Time: 21,16,16
All Time: 25,19,20
All Time: 1,1,1
All Time: 25,12,15
All Time: 25,13,14
All Time: 10,7,8
All Time: 25,17,17
All Time: 25,14,16
All Time: 25,7,8
Wood Elf: 7,4,4
All Time: 25,15,16