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2023-12-12 15:37:15
7 votes, rating 4.3
7 votes, rating 4.3
Lizardmen
I recently decided to branch out and try my hand at coaching a team of reptiles.
I am 9 games in and sitting at a 4/1/4 or a .500 record. So far, I don't like them at all. They do nothing well and if a team wants to mark you, you are stuck and there is no way to disengage. It's a slow slog that you lose because your sauri are skill-less knobs. And the guys in the back that are supposed to be controlling the ball can't do much either since they end up in the casualty box. It's so hard to get any skills because no one is scoring, no one is getting any casualties and we're just trudging along. Since I bought the Kroxi(now my second Kroxi since I had one niggled the last game) he hasn't lost me a game yet, so there is that. I have 2 chameleon skinks, and I am not sure they are any better than a regular skink TBH; that 7 ma may even make them worse come down the stretch. I need some DT as agility teams run rampant but those DT skinks will most likely die the quickest. If an agility team wants to run away from me, NO PROBLEM - I can catch you though, if only to mark you and TRY and ultimately fail to tackle your blodger.
Why did they nerf break tackle so hard? That seems like a skill that would make lizards more fun and viable.
Has anyone had luck with Lizzies in BB2020 or are they just a middling team? Maybe I am just sucking hard and/or not building them correctly...
I am 9 games in and sitting at a 4/1/4 or a .500 record. So far, I don't like them at all. They do nothing well and if a team wants to mark you, you are stuck and there is no way to disengage. It's a slow slog that you lose because your sauri are skill-less knobs. And the guys in the back that are supposed to be controlling the ball can't do much either since they end up in the casualty box. It's so hard to get any skills because no one is scoring, no one is getting any casualties and we're just trudging along. Since I bought the Kroxi(now my second Kroxi since I had one niggled the last game) he hasn't lost me a game yet, so there is that. I have 2 chameleon skinks, and I am not sure they are any better than a regular skink TBH; that 7 ma may even make them worse come down the stretch. I need some DT as agility teams run rampant but those DT skinks will most likely die the quickest. If an agility team wants to run away from me, NO PROBLEM - I can catch you though, if only to mark you and TRY and ultimately fail to tackle your blodger.
Why did they nerf break tackle so hard? That seems like a skill that would make lizards more fun and viable.
Has anyone had luck with Lizzies in BB2020 or are they just a middling team? Maybe I am just sucking hard and/or not building them correctly...
Comments
Posted by MattDakka on 2023-12-12 16:47:12
I would not use more than 1 Chameleon Skink, just to perform the ball retriever duty at Kick-Off and improve the 1ttd odds.
You can even use no Chameleon Skinks at all, but 2 are too many for what they add to the team.
It's not just the Break Tackle nerf, it's a sum of factors:
- random MVP doesn't help to skill the Saurus up;
- injuries are shifted towards SI and NI (that means that Apo is less effective and Saurus get crippled more often);
- in old ruleset you could get either a double skill or a level up at 6 SPPs, and, if within 2 level ups the Skink didn't get any, you could just cycle him. Now you have to reach 18 SPPs to get a stat boost and +AG is harder to get.
MA is capped at 9, so 1TTD is harder. Ok, you can use multi rr, but it's a quite risky sequence anyway, if you don't have AG 2+.
If they are struggling now, without Season Re-Draft, imagine when it will be implemented. Even more hard to develop them.
You can even use no Chameleon Skinks at all, but 2 are too many for what they add to the team.
It's not just the Break Tackle nerf, it's a sum of factors:
- random MVP doesn't help to skill the Saurus up;
- injuries are shifted towards SI and NI (that means that Apo is less effective and Saurus get crippled more often);
- in old ruleset you could get either a double skill or a level up at 6 SPPs, and, if within 2 level ups the Skink didn't get any, you could just cycle him. Now you have to reach 18 SPPs to get a stat boost and +AG is harder to get.
MA is capped at 9, so 1TTD is harder. Ok, you can use multi rr, but it's a quite risky sequence anyway, if you don't have AG 2+.
If they are struggling now, without Season Re-Draft, imagine when it will be implemented. Even more hard to develop them.
Posted by NerdBird on 2023-12-12 17:27:55
Which further makes my opinion you don't want any Chameleon skinks - lizards have a hard time changing hands with the ball. Having any Chameleon skinks means they have the ball more often than not and are the ones doing most of the scoring. The regular skinks are never going to skill.
I always thought the lizard team was a cool concept but man is it a tough slog with them under this ruleset.
I always thought the lizard team was a cool concept but man is it a tough slog with them under this ruleset.
Posted by MattDakka on 2023-12-12 17:55:26
On the ball + Catch + Diving Catch help to get the ball with the Chameleon Skink.
It's then a hand off to the main Skink ball carrier.
You don't have to do it on turn 1, but on turn 8 and 16 it can help a lot to score a 1TTD, because the Chameleon Skink has higher MA than a Skink at Kick-Off.
MA 7 + On the ball MA 3 = 10 MA.
You should score always with the same Skink, in order to level him up and get the stat boosts as soon as possible (ideally +AG, because it's rarer than +MA and makes Sure Hands less essential to have). The other Skinks are just supporting fodder, no need to skill them up.
It's then a hand off to the main Skink ball carrier.
You don't have to do it on turn 1, but on turn 8 and 16 it can help a lot to score a 1TTD, because the Chameleon Skink has higher MA than a Skink at Kick-Off.
MA 7 + On the ball MA 3 = 10 MA.
You should score always with the same Skink, in order to level him up and get the stat boosts as soon as possible (ideally +AG, because it's rarer than +MA and makes Sure Hands less essential to have). The other Skinks are just supporting fodder, no need to skill them up.
Posted by ArthurWynne on 2023-12-12 18:15:42
Lizards used to be a powerhouse at low-mid TV but the cost increase on saurus may be too much combined with the structural nerfs they get from the ruleset.
Posted by Sp00keh on 2023-12-12 18:43:22
They did need 'some' amount of nerf from previous rules, because the death of clawmb killers would have meant big lizard teams would have been really good
But, they got nerfed too hard
It's a shame because they were one of my favourite teams, but now I don't play them at all
But, they got nerfed too hard
It's a shame because they were one of my favourite teams, but now I don't play them at all
Posted by NerdBird on 2023-12-12 19:53:18
Are there any successful Lizard teams out there right now? Just interested to see their skill progression...
Posted by MattDakka on 2023-12-12 20:18:56
Check the top Lizardmen coaches:
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches&order=&type=blackbox&r=4966
About skill progression:
- Block, Guard, MB, Tackle, Stand Firm on Saurus, Frenzy could be nice on 1-2 of them as side line threats; Block, Guard, MB are core skills.
- Block, Guard, Pro, Stand Firm on Kroxigor;
- 1 Skink ball carrier with MA 9, Block, Side Step, Sprint, +AG and/or Sure Hands, Sure Feet;
- 1 Chameleon Skink if you want, but not mandatory; if you have a one turner Skink then he could be useful to improve the odds.
Don't bother skilling the other Skinks up, keep them cheap so they can be fodder.
13-14 players (low-mid TV 13, mid-high 14). At low TV 12 players can be ok. I don't suggest to go to high TV with Lizardmen. They are better at low-mid TV.
3 rrs
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches&order=&type=blackbox&r=4966
About skill progression:
- Block, Guard, MB, Tackle, Stand Firm on Saurus, Frenzy could be nice on 1-2 of them as side line threats; Block, Guard, MB are core skills.
- Block, Guard, Pro, Stand Firm on Kroxigor;
- 1 Skink ball carrier with MA 9, Block, Side Step, Sprint, +AG and/or Sure Hands, Sure Feet;
- 1 Chameleon Skink if you want, but not mandatory; if you have a one turner Skink then he could be useful to improve the odds.
Don't bother skilling the other Skinks up, keep them cheap so they can be fodder.
13-14 players (low-mid TV 13, mid-high 14). At low TV 12 players can be ok. I don't suggest to go to high TV with Lizardmen. They are better at low-mid TV.
3 rrs
Posted by Garion26 on 2023-12-13 01:22:36
I won our tabletop league in early BB 2020. Didn’t get the krox to start (and didn’t love it when I did) when a skink hit six spp I took a random general skill. Most are really helpful someplace on your team. A wrestle or block skink cage dives quite well with a reroll in hand.
as much as possible I tried to hand off to the Sauri when in scoring range and with a reasonable degree of pitch control.
I generally never tried to body up with the sauri. Rather left no one in base contact.
as much as possible I tried to hand off to the Sauri when in scoring range and with a reasonable degree of pitch control.
I generally never tried to body up with the sauri. Rather left no one in base contact.
Posted by Carthage on 2023-12-13 15:40:09
Lizards are the only other "tier 1" team that perform as badly as elves in the C environment according to the stats.
I think they are a better tournament team than a perpetual team.
I think they are a better tournament team than a perpetual team.
Posted by NerdBird on 2023-12-13 23:19:03
I don't see how they have Lizards as a Tier 1 team. There is no way they are an easy team to coach...
Posted by Carthage on 2023-12-14 01:51:50
They've got a better C environment win rate than 3 out of the 4 elves and I think they perform better than that in tournaments, but I don't have that stat breakdown in front of me, just going off memory.
I think their win rate is a bit suppressed by the newer players seeing "oh 6 ST4 players and fast ball carriers? This team is broken!" then they lose 3 games and never play them again.
Imo they are pretty fair. Maybe a smidge on the weak side, and I attribute that mostly the chameleon not being worth its price.
I know you play alot of bash, so I would recommend trying to focus on keeping one or two of the sauruses back in reserve similar to how you treat a bull centaur in a chorf team on defense to apply that constant safety pressure. On offense don't underestimate a skink screen in a pinch.
I think their win rate is a bit suppressed by the newer players seeing "oh 6 ST4 players and fast ball carriers? This team is broken!" then they lose 3 games and never play them again.
Imo they are pretty fair. Maybe a smidge on the weak side, and I attribute that mostly the chameleon not being worth its price.
I know you play alot of bash, so I would recommend trying to focus on keeping one or two of the sauruses back in reserve similar to how you treat a bull centaur in a chorf team on defense to apply that constant safety pressure. On offense don't underestimate a skink screen in a pinch.
Posted by NerdBird on 2023-12-14 03:49:17
https://fumbbl.com/p/rosterstats?y=2023 Looks like they win 48% of the time. Same as Chaos and OWA
Posted by Rawlf on 2023-12-14 17:26:20
I imagine checking out the top teams of the boxtrophy might be useful here.
https://fumbbl.com/p/boxtrophy then team standings and select Lizardmen.
https://fumbbl.com/p/boxtrophy then team standings and select Lizardmen.
Posted by Carthage on 2023-12-14 21:08:14
https://fumbbl.com/p/rosterstats
I wonder what is the difference between these two lists? Is the one without the year indicator since the inception of the 2020 ruleset?
I wonder what is the difference between these two lists? Is the one without the year indicator since the inception of the 2020 ruleset?
Posted by awambawamb on 2023-12-15 09:43:52
I used to keep sauruses to work in pair in order to gain from their St4. does that still work? The Krox is a roadblock, and like a Beast of Nurgle sometimes is better not to activate it at all