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2018-11-11 16:50:50
26 votes, rating 3.6
26 votes, rating 3.6
We need to talk about fouling
Hey man, relax, this is a lighthearted blog. No major rant whatsoever. I had a nice game (i have actually lost it, but enjoyed nevertheless) and chat with a decent opponent, which inspired me to write this blog. So the situation was as follows:
- I did a turn16 foul.
- Opponent noted it.
- Me asked whether it is an issue.
- He stated as there is nothing to gain from foul, it suggests spite.
- I said no spite, only amusement. Then we had a nice convo which was sparked by the foul as discussion starter.
Then i thought further. Hey, i have nothing to gain from playing the game either (or winning it for that matter), so not only a T16 foul is sort of pointless from the big picture (Real Life and such), so is any other foul, or any in game action, or the game itself. But it can be fun.
Cheers to all,
Andras
- I did a turn16 foul.
- Opponent noted it.
- Me asked whether it is an issue.
- He stated as there is nothing to gain from foul, it suggests spite.
- I said no spite, only amusement. Then we had a nice convo which was sparked by the foul as discussion starter.
Then i thought further. Hey, i have nothing to gain from playing the game either (or winning it for that matter), so not only a T16 foul is sort of pointless from the big picture (Real Life and such), so is any other foul, or any in game action, or the game itself. But it can be fun.
Cheers to all,
Andras
Comments
Posted by WizardX11 on 2018-11-11 16:55:02
If you are undead or Necro you could gain a player
Posted by horekim on 2018-11-11 17:01:40
Let's face it: Killing the opponents players is part of the fun in Blood Bowl and if you can't win the actual game a good foul can make you feel a little better about it.
If you played almost 6.000 fumbbl games you should have learned this by now.
If you played almost 6.000 fumbbl games you should have learned this by now.
Posted by PeteW on 2018-11-11 17:02:48
A T16 foul is a sign of respect for my opponent. Kind of like a handshake. If I'm not T16 fouled then I kind of feel pitied or looked down on.
I'm man enough to take it. Come on! Foul me!
I'm man enough to take it. Come on! Foul me!
Posted by razmus on 2018-11-11 17:11:30
When I started playing Blood Bowl, I'd rarely foul. I encountered some folks who T16 fouled, and a few explained it was a sign of respect for your opponent. I'm not a hundred percent certain I buy that with all opponents, but there's enough that I'll accept it for some. Defending the pixels you care about against that final foul is, I've now accepted, part of the game. Similarly, if you can get your opponent to risk that roughly 1/6 to 1/3 chance of losing a game winning/tying TD, then all the better. (If anyone wants to T16 foul me instead of running in that last TD... I'll take it, and pray the ref is wearing those new glasses I got 'em.)
I foul more than I once did, but it's still a lot less than I get fouled... but I'm a lot more entertained by fouling than I was as a new coach.
I foul more than I once did, but it's still a lot less than I get fouled... but I'm a lot more entertained by fouling than I was as a new coach.
Posted by Dominik on 2018-11-11 17:34:09
Im against T16 fouls in most cases. The main reason: Blood Bowl is about winning primarily and only secondarily about the Blood.
I cannot understand the argument that a T16 foul is in any way related to respect for your opponent.
I cannot understand the argument that a T16 foul is in any way related to respect for your opponent.
Posted by MattDakka on 2018-11-11 17:51:42
T16 foul may have strategic reason: you could face the same team again and if you manage to cripple or kill a good player you won't have to deal with him.
If the player is just LOS fodder then a T16 foul should not upset.
If the player is just LOS fodder then a T16 foul should not upset.
Posted by Malmir on 2018-11-11 18:38:51
No need for spite fouls when the game is over. Always just feels like sour grapes to me
Posted by bghandras on 2018-11-11 18:51:23
Nobody said spite foul.
Posted by stowelly on 2018-11-11 19:48:09
Not much to add to this apart from thumbs up to T16 fouls!
Posted by Gozer_the_Gozerian on 2018-11-11 19:57:25
The most valid reason I can think of when I have to explain to people why I did it is that if you are playing in an environment where you are likely to face that same team again, and you have a chance to take out a valuable player before the rematch, it's a good strategy.
Posted by Verminardo on 2018-11-11 20:27:15
"Hey, i have nothing to gain from playing the game either (or winning it for that matter), so not only a T16 foul is sort of pointless from the big picture (Real Life and such), so is any other foul, or any in game action, or the game itself."
Hm not sure I really want to even try and disprove this as there are so many obvious things wrong with it.
T16 foul "for amusement" ok, the question is, what is it that amuses you? If it's to kill the Star Player or Journeyman then fair enough, there arguably isn't any other reason than amusement to this. Is it to kill the statfreak Legend? Then you are accepting to destroy something that required luck and a lot of time to acquire, so if that's "amusement" to you that says something about you, too. Or maybe you are doing it because you believe in evening the odds for other people facing that team later, which I would rate a better reason than "amusement" for doing something that you fully know may be very frustrating to the human being you have just shared a social activity with.
Or say you've lost in a tournament game and the other guy has no money and you're fouling a positional player with 2 or 3 normal skills. Why exactly would you think this is "amusing"? Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to police you. I'm just suggesting this is an interesting question to ask yourself, if you want to talk about T16 fouling.
Hm not sure I really want to even try and disprove this as there are so many obvious things wrong with it.
T16 foul "for amusement" ok, the question is, what is it that amuses you? If it's to kill the Star Player or Journeyman then fair enough, there arguably isn't any other reason than amusement to this. Is it to kill the statfreak Legend? Then you are accepting to destroy something that required luck and a lot of time to acquire, so if that's "amusement" to you that says something about you, too. Or maybe you are doing it because you believe in evening the odds for other people facing that team later, which I would rate a better reason than "amusement" for doing something that you fully know may be very frustrating to the human being you have just shared a social activity with.
Or say you've lost in a tournament game and the other guy has no money and you're fouling a positional player with 2 or 3 normal skills. Why exactly would you think this is "amusing"? Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to police you. I'm just suggesting this is an interesting question to ask yourself, if you want to talk about T16 fouling.
Posted by AutoAxpert on 2018-11-11 20:54:52
It's turn 16 and I've lost or drawn? A T16 foul is, as someone mentioned, like a handshake. Congrats, now get kicked in the gonads.
It's turn 16 and I'm winning? Now I'm just pouring salt on the wound. It's just trying to make an opponent more miserable, and I'm not sure I'm ok with that.
I know that many think it's the right to do in any case and is "in the spirit of the game", but it's literally an action that present no value to you but might damage the opponent. I mean, skilless linos and loners are, more or less, fair game, but if you already left your mark on the roster and you're still targeting the opponents I think the "amusement" part it's debatable.
It's turn 16 and I'm winning? Now I'm just pouring salt on the wound. It's just trying to make an opponent more miserable, and I'm not sure I'm ok with that.
I know that many think it's the right to do in any case and is "in the spirit of the game", but it's literally an action that present no value to you but might damage the opponent. I mean, skilless linos and loners are, more or less, fair game, but if you already left your mark on the roster and you're still targeting the opponents I think the "amusement" part it's debatable.
Posted by Malmir on 2018-11-11 21:15:20
I said 'spite foul'. That's how I view Turn 16 fouls.
Posted by Rbthma on 2018-11-11 21:54:12
As a coach who likes to do the T16 fake-foul (activate foul, run around but not foul) for fun this blog has made me realize that it's probably *more* spiteful to do than actually fouling
Posted by deyempe on 2018-11-11 22:16:06
well said bh, or in the words of te Joker "Why So Serious??..."
I enjoy a t16 foul, it encapsulates the theme of the game and that is !BLOOD! '''WARhammer''' bowl.
The races are ofc going to want to kill each other.
I say, Cry More ;D
I enjoy a t16 foul, it encapsulates the theme of the game and that is !BLOOD! '''WARhammer''' bowl.
The races are ofc going to want to kill each other.
I say, Cry More ;D
Posted by bghandras on 2018-11-11 22:53:09
Cheers deyempe!
Guys, you might overthink this. And for people who know me, this might sound hilarious. (I am often a notorious overthinker.)
Guys, you might overthink this. And for people who know me, this might sound hilarious. (I am often a notorious overthinker.)
Posted by FinnDiesel on 2018-11-11 23:16:48
Well, if your undead teams it is a good choice and opponents get really annoyed that you hurt their team :-) and this could matter in a close league
Posted by Mootzilla on 2018-11-11 23:55:50
"It's not enough that I should succeed - others should fail"
Posted by FRSHMN on 2018-11-12 00:04:21
First of all: Beware of naming and shaming... the dogs are out to bark'n'bite!
Second: Stolen my title... that's the real foul play here. If I hadn't before, of course.
Second: Stolen my title... that's the real foul play here. If I hadn't before, of course.
Posted by bghandras on 2018-11-12 00:13:10
Stealing is not an issue if there is quality, right? :)
Posted by MenonaLoco on 2018-11-12 03:47:32
Correct, Brahms stole from beethoven, who stole from mozart, who stole from bach, who stole from vivaldi...
Btw, you cannot foul all turns without the t16 foul. And there is a badge for that. for reasons. and yes, I got that badge. :-p
Btw, you cannot foul all turns without the t16 foul. And there is a badge for that. for reasons. and yes, I got that badge. :-p
Posted by harvestmouse on 2018-11-12 05:11:28
"Then i thought further. Hey, i have nothing to gain from playing the game either"
There is a big difference. You playing the game is your enjoyment and you are not taking away from others to do that. If you turn 16 foul you gain little but may take a player from the other person. The enjoyment of T16 fouling is if you think about it taking something from the opposing team for no gain.
A life lesson I think is how much enjoyment do you get compared to how much of anothers enjoyment you would take away. I cannot see how T16 fouling is worth it. In your mind you may see it as a fun thing, but if you think about it fully it is fun because you are taking away from that team. I do not think that most t16 foulers here {and there are many} think of it as taking from the opposing coach, but many opposing coaches see it like that and do not see it as an endless recycling of pixels.
T16 fouling is a bit meh to me, but it certainly is not something I would do, even in spite.
There is a big difference. You playing the game is your enjoyment and you are not taking away from others to do that. If you turn 16 foul you gain little but may take a player from the other person. The enjoyment of T16 fouling is if you think about it taking something from the opposing team for no gain.
A life lesson I think is how much enjoyment do you get compared to how much of anothers enjoyment you would take away. I cannot see how T16 fouling is worth it. In your mind you may see it as a fun thing, but if you think about it fully it is fun because you are taking away from that team. I do not think that most t16 foulers here {and there are many} think of it as taking from the opposing coach, but many opposing coaches see it like that and do not see it as an endless recycling of pixels.
T16 fouling is a bit meh to me, but it certainly is not something I would do, even in spite.
Posted by MrCushtie on 2018-11-12 05:42:23
I'm trying hard with my goblins to get the badge. Out of politeness for my opponent, I'll always foul journeymen in T16, but I suppose if I were doing so out of purer, more altruistic motives I should really be hitting their most valuable players, to protect future opponents from them.
If you're being cautious, I suppose there's situations where if you don't foul, there's a riot and then extra turns where those players come back to punish you for your weakness.
If you're being cautious, I suppose there's situations where if you don't foul, there's a riot and then extra turns where those players come back to punish you for your weakness.
Posted by bghandras on 2018-11-12 09:37:16
Well, there are strategic reasons to foul in t16, like potentially getting easier setup for 1turn so opponent does not go hard on the los area. But this blog is not about strategy, so i only reply cause others brought that up. The main point is better described by this quote and answer:
"A life lesson I think is how much enjoyment do you get compared to how much of anothers enjoyment you would take away."
I could argue that some enjoyment is lost by opponents by actions done prior to turn16, when the game is not decided. So if this argument is accepted, then please think twice before blitzing the ball carrier with tackle/mb/block/frenzy monsters! As the fun to fun ratio is negative, one should act carefully, right? :)
"A life lesson I think is how much enjoyment do you get compared to how much of anothers enjoyment you would take away."
I could argue that some enjoyment is lost by opponents by actions done prior to turn16, when the game is not decided. So if this argument is accepted, then please think twice before blitzing the ball carrier with tackle/mb/block/frenzy monsters! As the fun to fun ratio is negative, one should act carefully, right? :)
Posted by Wuhan on 2018-11-12 09:39:43
I just want to hear the sploosh
Posted by Kondor on 2018-11-12 12:07:58
There is a badge in it for a T16 foul kill. No further reason is necessary but the SPLOOSH sound is always satisfying.
Posted by Verminardo on 2018-11-12 13:51:22
The question is "do you want to be generous". Some people would ask themselves "why" while others would ask themselves "why not". This is really what it breaks down to.
Posted by Beomer on 2018-11-12 14:15:24
The discussion about a "fun to fun"-ratio is kind of interesting, but blitzing a ballcarrier with a killer during the game is not pointless - there is always something relevant to gain for the blitzer be it to get the ball, the positional advantage or simply the spp. You "risk" hurting that target - maybe you even hope you do (which i normally do not - i mostly care for the combined benefits of SPP + removal) but you almost always have some kind of relevant advantage to gain by that.
But if you leave the strategic reasons for a t16 foul aside (as securing the win or draw by stunning or removing the only player in touchdown range or the natural one-turner are reasons i can completely understand here) - but simply trying to cripple or murder a developed player "for amusement" is something I simply don't like and would never do myself if the opponent has not done the same thing in his T16 - and most times not even then.
I can neither find anything respectful in that nor do I understand what should be amusing about this except that you really enjoy making the other person feel bad, which I think is not a personal trait many people really like. Maybe someone with a sadistic or masochistic personality - but I can't speak for those.
I am glad this has not happened to me yet - but even thinking about a player I have developed carefully and with some luck - maybe the most relevant piece of my team - or the fun-piece - and having him kind of hunted down and killed or crippeled by someone finding a T16 foul "funny" or "respectful" makes me really sad and angry.
Why should I try to make someone feel worse where I have absolutely nothing to gain?
Well people do this and I can't change it anyway so I kind of arranged with the risk. But as I said - I simply can neither see amusement nor respect in such an action.
I just prefer the building and growing aspect of most games over the destructive aspects - but that is just my humble opinion.
But if you leave the strategic reasons for a t16 foul aside (as securing the win or draw by stunning or removing the only player in touchdown range or the natural one-turner are reasons i can completely understand here) - but simply trying to cripple or murder a developed player "for amusement" is something I simply don't like and would never do myself if the opponent has not done the same thing in his T16 - and most times not even then.
I can neither find anything respectful in that nor do I understand what should be amusing about this except that you really enjoy making the other person feel bad, which I think is not a personal trait many people really like. Maybe someone with a sadistic or masochistic personality - but I can't speak for those.
I am glad this has not happened to me yet - but even thinking about a player I have developed carefully and with some luck - maybe the most relevant piece of my team - or the fun-piece - and having him kind of hunted down and killed or crippeled by someone finding a T16 foul "funny" or "respectful" makes me really sad and angry.
Why should I try to make someone feel worse where I have absolutely nothing to gain?
Well people do this and I can't change it anyway so I kind of arranged with the risk. But as I said - I simply can neither see amusement nor respect in such an action.
I just prefer the building and growing aspect of most games over the destructive aspects - but that is just my humble opinion.
Posted by MenonaLoco on 2018-11-12 14:51:01
So, everybody who does get Joy out of something you dont, is a sadist or a masochist. lol.
As if you had never played a +4 in UNO despite of having no realistic chance of winning yourself! :-)))
As if you had never played a +4 in UNO despite of having no realistic chance of winning yourself! :-)))
Posted by bghandras on 2018-11-12 15:25:48
Good point, on the other hand bbowl is INDEED bringing special enjoyment if one IMAGINES both coaches are sadists, and the pixels are NOT REAL PLAYERS, just pixels. I know it is hard to imagine so, especially the pixels being pixels part!
Posted by deyempe on 2018-11-12 16:57:50
Skulls for the skull throne!!! Need be said more ??..
Well, ..If your Star/s survive the boot/s put into them then consider them blessed by almighty Nuffle to live and see another match day!!
If not, well hell they are destined to die sometime - out wit the old in with the new.
Team building is fun.. but play reliance on star players and/or certain skill builds is bleh, any team with a value over tv1000 is bloated(imo). That is how I see's it
If you cant play competitively with your chosen race/team at rookie level, or at least enjoy using at rookie level as they come out-the-box, don't play them. If you cant hack your stars dieing, don't play the BLOODY Sport of BLOOD BOWL! XD
Simple as that really :D ..I repeat
Skulls for teh skull throne!
Well, ..If your Star/s survive the boot/s put into them then consider them blessed by almighty Nuffle to live and see another match day!!
If not, well hell they are destined to die sometime - out wit the old in with the new.
Team building is fun.. but play reliance on star players and/or certain skill builds is bleh, any team with a value over tv1000 is bloated(imo). That is how I see's it
If you cant play competitively with your chosen race/team at rookie level, or at least enjoy using at rookie level as they come out-the-box, don't play them. If you cant hack your stars dieing, don't play the BLOODY Sport of BLOOD BOWL! XD
Simple as that really :D ..I repeat
Skulls for teh skull throne!
Posted by Fanky on 2018-11-12 17:53:03
Nothing wrong about fouling. I usually play and organize my turns with the awareness that my players are in danger. I don't see the reason to play turn 15 thinking that in turn 16 there will not be repercussions. It would be an advantage right?
Posted by Wozzaa on 2018-11-12 18:22:29
What about T16 surfs?
Posted by AutoAxpert on 2018-11-12 19:12:20
T16 surfs are even worse, IMO.
Posted by MenonaLoco on 2018-11-12 19:15:59
omg. its a game. people enjoy games their way. killing pixels - no harm done. Thats the good thing about games.
Posted by Augustine on 2018-11-12 20:46:36
foul or dont, the rules allow it so if you choose to or not is your own personal moral/enjoyment/sadistic choice.
But if you arent t16 fouling in the 80% of games you win, and only the one you lost. Its probably spite.
Which is the best reason for a T16 foul/surf in my opinion. Other than being able to kill a 1Turner stat freak.
But if you arent t16 fouling in the 80% of games you win, and only the one you lost. Its probably spite.
Which is the best reason for a T16 foul/surf in my opinion. Other than being able to kill a 1Turner stat freak.
Posted by happygrue on 2018-11-12 21:15:49
When presented with an option in life where you can gain a small amount of enjoyment and there is another person who may also gain a small amount of enjoyment, or perhaps have no reaction, or lose a small amount of enjoyment... or perhaps become EXTREMELY frustrated... is it worth considering what happens to the other person or should we only think about the small gain we will enjoy?
Posted by happygrue on 2018-11-12 21:26:09
Just to be clear, I'm not making a judgement about how rational such reactions are, but people play the game for different reasons and enjoy different aspects of it. Personally, I have been T16 fouled too many times to count but only really bothered by it in exactly one situation. My point is: context matters.
Posted by bghandras on 2018-11-12 22:05:40
If something normal happens, and i have the choice of
- smiling and laughing about it
- shrugging it off
- getting pissed off
Which shall i do? If i make my decision, is it the fault of somebody else who did a normal thing?
Not saying fouling is normal or not. I leave it up for interpretation. And i know that normal is very widely interpreted, and what is normal for someone is not normal for someone else. I formulate purposefully in a way to show how semantic is the debate about fouling, and how much it is about projecting spite, whereas it is possibly not there at all.
- smiling and laughing about it
- shrugging it off
- getting pissed off
Which shall i do? If i make my decision, is it the fault of somebody else who did a normal thing?
Not saying fouling is normal or not. I leave it up for interpretation. And i know that normal is very widely interpreted, and what is normal for someone is not normal for someone else. I formulate purposefully in a way to show how semantic is the debate about fouling, and how much it is about projecting spite, whereas it is possibly not there at all.
Posted by thoralf on 2018-11-13 06:07:33
You're not that much of an overthinker, bg. I may be biased.
Sometimes players foul. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they get hit by a rock.
Sometimes players foul. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they get hit by a rock.
Posted by awambawamb on 2018-11-13 12:31:14
lol
Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2018-11-13 12:37:56
addendum: If you are playing box trophy you should expect people to t16 a positional if they can - after all, they are competing against you.
Posted by bghandras on 2018-11-13 13:40:09
Exactly, finally getting it, haha!
Posted by Wuhan on 2018-11-13 14:15:17
Some know about the secret foulers award. Some do not know. Enlightenment.
Posted by Strider84 on 2018-11-13 16:12:51
About box trophy only the really good coaches, because the average coaches should steal some points from them with their stat freaks :-)
Im also a fan of the fake foul. Like with the roman gladiators choosing to let them live. Caring not just about your fun but also your opponents is something you latest learn when you have kids. Well some still dont :-)
That said you should always practice oneturners in turn 16. Even with khemri.
Of course, if someone has been whining all game or spare me timing me out even he knows whats coming.
Im also a fan of the fake foul. Like with the roman gladiators choosing to let them live. Caring not just about your fun but also your opponents is something you latest learn when you have kids. Well some still dont :-)
That said you should always practice oneturners in turn 16. Even with khemri.
Of course, if someone has been whining all game or spare me timing me out even he knows whats coming.
Posted by Rags on 2018-11-13 18:50:58
I agree with Malmir, Verminado and others. Not impressed by the behaviour or the rationalisations/excuses. Whether or not motive is acknowledged as 'spite', it's unnecessary, mean-spirited, and petty.
Some of best performers in any field are highly competitive types, that's to be expected. It's sure it's nice to be used to winning, but learning to lose gracefully is important too.
Some of best performers in any field are highly competitive types, that's to be expected. It's sure it's nice to be used to winning, but learning to lose gracefully is important too.
Posted by SpecialOne on 2018-11-14 08:54:16
My guideline.
leagueplay/BBT = Foul like a maniac on T16. Bloodbowl is not won today!
Casual Ranked or BB games. = I do not foul.
leagueplay/BBT = Foul like a maniac on T16. Bloodbowl is not won today!
Casual Ranked or BB games. = I do not foul.
Posted by det on 2018-11-14 12:02:14
hehe...sometimes I see it as revenge rather than spite really, something the team would do in the bloodbowl world...
Like...fouling in T16 an Ag5 leap HE blitzer that single-handedly won the game. I think the players on my team would have given the boot to him if we roleplay it correctly, them being orcs by the way XD
(in the end...I fake-fouled him though, ah well, such a kind soul...:P)
Like...fouling in T16 an Ag5 leap HE blitzer that single-handedly won the game. I think the players on my team would have given the boot to him if we roleplay it correctly, them being orcs by the way XD
(in the end...I fake-fouled him though, ah well, such a kind soul...:P)
Posted by Rawlf on 2018-11-15 11:55:45
T16 fouls cause grief and give you nothing. Now be a grown-up person, make an informed decision and assume responsibility for it. End of story.
Your spite or other motives behind t16 fouling are irrelevant. And discussing how your opponent takes it or how he should feel about it are none of your business. It is certainly not 'overthinking'. Looks more like a desperate attempt to not have to admit you are a sore loser. This could be wrong and is none of my business anyway.
Your spite or other motives behind t16 fouling are irrelevant. And discussing how your opponent takes it or how he should feel about it are none of your business. It is certainly not 'overthinking'. Looks more like a desperate attempt to not have to admit you are a sore loser. This could be wrong and is none of my business anyway.