Posted by Shraaaag on 2015-02-20 20:46:56
That's how I roll! :)
Posted by drunkagent on 2015-02-20 20:51:53
Yay victory should be to the weak and lucky not the strong and skilled!
Posted by vaclav on 2015-02-20 20:58:58
something on my acount?
Posted by vaclav on 2015-02-20 21:04:13
i mean i cant really saw what i did wrong that much?
Posted by albinv on 2015-02-20 21:06:43
Oh, those foul rants....they make me so mad.
Can barely hold back the snake eye vote!
Think i gotta step away from this for an hour or so to maintain my composure. Yeah, thats wiser.
(Cant you just punch a hole in the dice though to see which roll is coming up next?)
Posted by vaclav on 2015-02-20 21:09:49
or, u ment u played dumb and rolled luckey and still lose?
Posted by Sammler_der_Seelen on 2015-02-20 21:15:07
Posted by mayhemzz22 on 2015-02-20 21:31:28
its how i win my games
Posted by licker on 2015-02-20 21:38:02
Bill makes a good point.
I've come to the conclusion that crp and maybe blood bowl in general is not my cup of tea anymore. Far too much random undoing either good or bad play.
It's a d6 problem as much as it is a crp problem, but certain aspects of crp have just magnified the impact of one side getting good/bad dice over several turns.
Yes yes, it all averages out over time, and better play will perform better than weaker play... blah blah blah...
It's more a question of time investment vs. enjoyment of spending that time.
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-02-20 21:39:51
I'm not calling anyone out.
Review my games played today if you really are a bean counter.
But yes, the general point is that this is a game of dice :)
Posted by vaclav on 2015-02-20 21:46:06
Eh... match was too damn chaotic to be sure if i played it good or bad.
Posted by grant85 on 2015-02-20 21:51:16
"i hate this game, grumble, grumble, grumble...wait...i love this game grumble, grumble"
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-02-20 21:56:55
vaclav: You played WAY more risky than I try to play.
But, you won. So that's a good thing.
Don't second guess yourself.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-02-20 22:03:46
Actually, I'd say CRP is a game of roster management. When I say that, coach skill (and cool) of course still has the major bearing on the outcome. However roster management has far too much of a bearing compared to coach skill and dice.
And anybody with a mouse and right click button can copy roster management.
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-02-20 22:10:13
Truth there HM.
I had to laugh earlier.
A noob rolled me earlier, and then proceeded to lecture me how I needed more tackle & guard.
I smiled & nodded, but after 11k games, I know how to play the game.
If I can keep an elf team alive long enough, I'll certainly have an appropriate amount of tackle & guard.
Posted by Badoek on 2015-02-20 22:33:33
The Box is making you soft Bill
Posted by albinv on 2015-02-20 23:13:12
Oh so serious that post was really? Im surprised. OO
I dont know, im a notorious bad coach. One to laugh at and to be looked down in disgust by the so called "good" coaches. Yeah, that serious a lot of the big boy coaches take the game really, maybe even the majority. I guess most of us know that and if not we'd better realize soon.
I dont know. I hated this game when i followed this chess comparison attitude - that lately, fortunately - seems to have died off completely. Since i dont do that anymore, but have decided to see it as what it is - a dice game and on top of it decided trying to put my main focus not on risk minimizing and conservative coaching, but instead to focus on the chances and high impact plays - i enjoy the game!
I would think you can as well go the other route, and try to develop a way of playing that will take even the good coaches into those "chaotic", "fuzzy logic" state on the pitch - where the dice, big chance and an instinct for that will rule the game.
Of course you wont be playing that stable by that, and will probably drop and rise more often.
As we all know matches between real good coaches will, in the end, mostly be decided by luck anyway as they are so good at balancing the randomness out - to paraphrase one of fumbbls golden rules/ observations. Which is very true of course. Only logical.
Looking at this i came to think - if thats the situations, and it seems the logical conclusion - why dont try to take the game there right away? And trying to cultivate this approach seemed always more appealing to me.
Not sure how much of that i actually achieve on how many days of a week and i also dont want to use big words here or anything anyway. But there is some reason to the initial observation i guess.
It puzzles me that people of at least average or above-average IQ seriously take this game as a battle of wit/ intellect. Im tempted to say that attitude is slightly deluded.
But im not even sure if one could call it that really - as ofc its a testified way of winning a lot and maintain a consistent good record. But its not the only way to win for sure. But it seems to me though that those coaches are more prone to bitterness and frustration at times (as to having a negative attitude towards the opponent).
Might add im really not speaking about brasky or anyone personal, just general thoughts on the topic really.
In any case im not trying to spit in anyones soup with this post and thoughts. In the end i just wished coaches of the caliber and in situations like licker could find a different perspective and some fun with the game again. But also ofc i wouldnt try to persuade them or anything. Its just a good game, played on a pretty good internet site in the end.
That post got longer than expected. Sorry brasky hope you dont mind all that much. Seems like even the luckers take the little great game too serious and waste way too much thoughts on it in the end. ;)
(Noobs rubbing it in and teaching you - is among the finest Nuffle can serve you - my condolences if i might add, before it gets forgotten.)
Posted by albinv on 2015-02-20 23:14:58
Whoops - that looked more like a solid brick than a wall before posting.
Maybe we should publish a collection of fumbbl essays one day? Alarm the oxford press.
Posted by paradocks on 2015-02-20 23:23:01
Just like life.. I kick all of your asses skill-wise in the real world, however due to terrible luck my life is ruined
Posted by licker on 2015-02-20 23:27:36
Heh, it looks fine here albinv.
When I first came to fumbbl I was ecstatic, I love the management aspect in games, and the diversity of races/skills was very enjoyable to (re)learn. Games like XCOM and Jagged Alliance are some of my favorites because they also blend 'roster management' around a fun tactical game.
However, lately I've been going back to my CCG roots, which I had left a long while ago due to time and money restrictions (or at least lack of desire to spend the time and money it took to maintain a certain level in them). Through games like MMDoC and (to a lesser degree) Infinity Wars and even Hearthstone, I've grown to appreciate the level of skill and tactics involved in competing in them at as high a level as I can attain.
Comparing then those games (primarily MMDoC, the others have some bad randomization issues) to my experiences with fumbbl I've drawn the conclusion that the mechanics of blood bowl simply contain too much randomness in them for my taste. I think CRP has made this worse through the snowball effect bad dice cause when facing heavy bash teams, and while I play some of those kinds of teams, I simply find the matches rather unappealing. Win or lose, it's become who rolls the better dice.
I didn't mind games where it came down to who rolled the better dice at the most important time, those were usually well contested back and forth matches. However, those matches are becoming fewer and fewer for me, even playing my Dark Elfs and Amazons, who shouldn't rely so much on snowball effects.
That's not to say I'm giving up, I already gave up on R and B ages ago, for totally different reasons. It's just to say that I've decided CRP is really a very poorly done implementation in a game which already suffers (overly in my opinion) from extremes of variance in the dice.
That's the problem with the d6 system in a nutshell.
Posted by mrt1212 on 2015-02-21 00:48:27
I thought that was the secret to beating you Bill - play poorly to lull you into a false sense of confidence then pay nuffle off to give me all the good dice that just make enough of a difference to beat your team.
Posted by fidius on 2015-02-21 00:52:41
In statistical terms, the target means of every action are about right, except for the obvious combo. But the variances are WAY too large.
When I first started playing WOW (in Beta, during my MBA, and yes it nearly cost me my degree), I was struck by how meaningless each level's trait increment seemed to be. But over time it made a huge difference, and was properly designed. Blood Bowl needs to be more like this, too. More skills more often, making less difference individually but helping to customize players in more interesting ways.
Yes, skill revamp is my hobby horse.
Posted by Jeffro on 2015-02-21 02:53:20
The fact that dumb luck can allow a mush-brained drunkard to beat a highly skilled, genius tactician is exactly what makes this game awesome. If it were just about skill, only smart people would enjoy it. As it stands, I can get blitzed out of my gourd and still have a chance at beating PurpleChest. If that's frustrating for the folks at the top end of the brain ladder, tough shit. Y'all likely have other successful things in your life to balance out losing a lucky game of monster football dice.
Posted by keggiemckill on 2015-02-21 03:44:54
Jeffro took the words outa man mouff. +1. Mind you Im drunk, and Ill probably change my mind with a hang over.
Posted by Cavetroll on 2015-02-21 05:34:11
I agree with Bill on this one. F#@$ dumb luck.
Posted by licker on 2015-02-21 05:58:58
If you're replying to Bill then I guess.
If you're replying to me then you missed my point :)
Posted by giltiar on 2015-02-21 08:51:43
Bill is certainly true when he posts this rant (just seeing the number of reactions and interesting comments resultin about his post!)
But when I seethe Albinv reaction, I agree with him too, neverthless he is a liar because he is not a bad coach. A bad coach is very often when a coach is sure to be a great coach and is not one.
For instance, when a coach is abble to perform10 or more consecutive defeating games and always saying ( Fuc.... Dices, They trully hate me GNAGNAGNI GNAGNAGNA...) --> I am this one kind of coach, r I was again recently I hope it is past, but if there were a challenge for the worst coach, Bill who is not so bad wouldn't be on the podium, so anyway that's not important.
I apologize to Bill about the last game we had because this one was really lucky about me!!!
-->Maybe this one is responsible for part about this post BillB did!
When I hate a girl, I don't choose kiss or more with her...
So I think Bill doesn't hate dices...
FINALLY I LOVE THIS GAME,
and with time try to do less and less huge errors, I do again a lot, I hope my sentences won't hurt anyone (in fact my english is certainly again worst than my way of playing, so sorry about it too! ;) )
Finally sometimes I can hate dices too but it's a great philosophical way of life. T o stay distant about the awful things.
Best Regards and Enjoy anyway!
Posted by cdassak on 2015-02-21 13:07:25
The fact that anything can fail and anything can work is among the things that make this game awesome.
For those who can't stand the 'luck' factor there's chess (I played chess a lot right before discovering FUMBBL and re-discovering BB, now no way for me to prefer a game of chess over a game of BB)
Posted by licker on 2015-02-21 16:49:04
Chess and flipping coins are two ends of the spectrum.
BB is somewhere in the middle, and it fits in nicely where it is. The issue (for some of us) is that CRP has pushed it more to the coins extreme than the chess extreme.
Well it is what it is, if you love it great, if you're dissatisfied with it also great. Nothing wrong with a little friendly discussion to present differing views. I don't think anyone is actually being offended or trying to convince anyone else that their view is wrong.
Except for Jeffo, his view is obviously wrong, but that goes without saying :)
Posted by Jeffro on 2015-02-21 20:07:10
I'm gonna try playing chess by flipping coins to see what pieces I move... then when I get frustrated by the result, I'm going to flip the whole board over and bitch and moan about randomness ruining fun... then maybe go play a game of tiddlywinks. I might, soon after, just start urinating in public in people's paths and scream at them "WHATTYA GONNA DO NOW!!???"
Ah, Saturday afternoons. Possibilities are endless.
Posted by keggiemckill on 2015-02-21 20:07:52
"It puzzles me that people of at least average or above-average IQ seriously take this game as a battle of wit/ intellect. Im tempted to say that attitude is slightly deluded."
This may be the greatest line Ive ever read on Fumbbl. So well put, it makes me laugh.
Posted by The_Great_Gobbo on 2015-02-21 20:16:47
I az solved dis problem in der most kunnin o wayz. By playin wiv gobo linemen only teems I expect ter lose an fer everyfink ter go rong so wen I pull of der outrageous move or rare win I iz well appy.
Plus it REELY pisses off 'seriuz' playerz oo ate lukerz!
Posted by keggiemckill on 2015-02-21 20:18:11
You know there are a lot of games that have chances, and odds. A flip of the coin is in correct Licker. A flip of the coin has a 50-50 chance of coming up heads, or tails. A dice roll has the odds of 1/6. There are less chance of failure in a Dice game rather than a Coin Flip. Here is the thing, if you keep hoping for POWs, then you are rooting for a 1/6 for coming up the winner. THAT attitude is way worse than a coin flip. I hope to have no skulls when I roll block dice, that is a better way to see the game.
Lets put it the same way, another way. You expect to win every game, so when you don't you go sideways and rant in every post and thread you can. I expect to lose every game, so winning is a surprise to me. Quit being a lame-0 and get with the times yo. If its not worth the aggravation, don't play. You will never persuade any of us not to play Blood Bowl. Our doors clearly have a sign posted "No Solicitors."
Posted by cdassak on 2015-02-21 20:46:23
All FUMBBLers, regardless of how much they play, their preffered races or divisions, their coaching level, their country of origin etc have one thing in common: they like playing blood bowl.
It is their cup of tea.
So this is why I don't get you licker.
No disrespect, honestly.
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-02-21 21:28:03
Lot's of responses here.
This was really just meant to be funny, based on a number of whines I had read. Although, I'll admit to having felt the same way before.
The point's still that it is a game of dice, so we all love it or leave it.
Posted by albinv on 2015-02-21 22:14:35
Whats a house with only one wall though...
Posted by albinv on 2015-02-21 22:14:44
"But when I see the Albinv reaction, I agree with him too, neverthless he is a liar because he is not a bad coach."
Oh, you got yourself in some deep sheet mate..... ;D
lol @keggie's and jeffro's first reply.
There are coaches on fumbbl that constantly manage to crack me up.
One of the reasons i stick around.
And i second the statement as well. Of course it was one of my thoughts too when deciding i want to play as less conservative coaching as possible. After all, only a lucky punch might get me a win over cdassak one day! Or PC for that matter, or..... ^^
Interesting post. I remember i almost got into an argument with you once as a completely greenish noob. Over time i learnt you're "simply" a guy that will take his stance if he is certain about his opinion and wont back down that easily. Those are very valuable traits in my book. And as i also learnt you were right and that i furthermore agreed on almost every other post i came to read, i hope you stick around.
I see your point about CRP in the discussed context, and think - in essence - its true.
Well, hope you'll be able to find those niches - like leagues - where you still can have a fun time enjoying the game. If not, it has to be i guess, and i wish you fun times at MMDoc or wherever it may take you! I sometimes flirt with the idea of starting CCGs. Think i could enjoy myself there and sometimes think BB is a substitute for it (as many others i guess), but in the end...yeah, its probably too consuming on every aspect. Anyway - have a good time mate, wherever it may be! :)
I beat my chess computer one time but almost didnt notice unless i woke up!
While it is a true story it wasnt the time for me to start playing chess back then. Its one of those things you'll have to pick up early in life or you have a hard time getting into it. Or have to invest a lot of time.
Ive lost some 20+ matches though and can say its a great game too.
I still wonder if there is a more quick and dirty road to learn playing it with some mediocre success and enjoyment, as there is with bb. Something that allows you to bend the solid rules of play/ learning you know. ;)
And gets you started playing fast. I doubt it. If, by chance, there is a chess playing fumbbler stumbling across this who actually feels me here and might have an idea/ hint - i would be happy to receive a PM. :)
Posted by albinv on 2015-02-21 23:24:38
Oh - i made keggie laugh. Almost slipped my attention. Full score right there, lucky punch - yeah! \o/
"This may be the greatest line Ive ever read on Fumbbl. So well put, it makes me laugh." keggie
Well, must say i can only return those words then. ;D
Posted by ImpactedAnimal on 2015-02-22 00:52:29
I just had a game that was pretty much a case of this (in my favour) - and it did take the fun having to try find out a way out of the horrible mess ive got myself into kind of aspect of the game - def wouldnt want every game to be like that but, having put in a game with halflings and been trounced in my other game of the day, I'll happily lap up some nuffle loving now and again :)
Posted by licker on 2015-02-22 08:21:17
Did I break keggie?
Dude, if you think I'm ranting you have never seen an actual rant.
If you think I'm complaining then that's fine. I'm not, at least not about what you think I would be complaining about. There's room to discuss how BB works after all.
Posted by licker on 2015-02-22 08:45:50
"All FUMBBLers, regardless of how much they play, their preffered races or divisions, their coaching level, their country of origin etc have one thing in common: they like playing blood bowl.
It is their cup of tea.
So this is why I don't get you licker.
No disrespect, honestly. "
I didn't take any disrespect, but I don't understand why you don't get my point of view. Of course you, and many others, do not agree with it, but do you really not understand it?
CRP has moved the game too far away from the kind of blood bowl I enjoyed playing. My issue honestly has nothing to do with whether I win or lose a game, it has to do with how fulfilling I find playing the game.
Some of you seem to think I hate blood bowl now. That's not the case, but as most things on the internet, it's easier to assume that someone who says something you disagree with is dumb and then make up arguments they never claimed, rather than take the time to understand what they are saying. And even if you disagree with what I'm saying (though that would be kind of pointless since I'm talking about my personal feelings, you may feel differently, but it's pointless to think that I should feel differently than I do) there is the fact that CRP has changed the game. Better or worse, you decide for yourself, I really don't care what your opinion of it is, though I'm happy to hear the reasons why you may like it more or less.
Posted by cdassak on 2015-02-22 08:55:00
No mate I dont disagree with what you say. I cannot because I havent played the ruleset before crp.
In fact, I believe that you are right about it (crp moved Bb towards the dice extreme rather than the chess one).
All I am saying is that I dont get why you still play if its not your cup of tea anymore.
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-02-22 09:38:44
Posted by Throweck on 2015-02-22 14:47:12
Such a lovely place.
Posted by licker on 2015-02-22 17:22:48
I play in a handful of leagues I enjoy for the fluff and the people. But even those are not immune to the issues I have. It's sad, as much as I enjoy playing league, building teams, managing from season to season, the actual games themselves are becoming more of a chore than what I would hope them to be.
Posted by keggiemckill on 2015-02-22 17:39:27
Cdassak, CPR is a much better game. You can actually play the game now instead of a dice ridden foulathon. You know how everyone rants about Claw in CPR, you should have seen the LRB4 Fouling Rants. It was much bigger and more intense. If you look back at my FUMBBL career, I took a 2-3 year hiatus. This is when I started playing LRB5. I couldn't go back and play FUMBBLs rule set until it had changed. Anyways, the game is miles better than it every has been. So what if a guy gets diced every once in a while. So what if he gets diced every game? The game is about playing for fun. Yes there is stragedy, but is it the the whole meat of the game? Nope.
Posted by licker on 2015-02-22 19:44:37
To each their own keggie.
I'm glad you enjoy this rule set more than past rule sets. It appeals to a certain kind of player who want's a certain experience from the game.
It's not right or wrong, it's just different.
Posted by koadah on 2015-02-22 20:35:17
The game works a lot better if everyone isn't just using 11 man CPOMB teams. ;)
You can also nerf CPOMB to be on the safe side.
Posted by Beerox on 2015-02-23 00:12:31
If there were a magic way to avoid a game going to absolute crap in the first three turns, that would be nice. I can handle losing, but not sitting there bored and hopeless for an hour plus. Sure I can flick on the TV after failing my first action for the first 4 turns and watching my 2 best guys get injured. But it's still a major flaw in a game that it can be over in the first "quarter" and lifeless for the next hour. Chess players quit when they lose a knight, but noooo.... on fumbbl you're supposed to play it out and be manly or something.
Oh well, it's funner than chess. The chance is part of the beauty, and I will continue to try and play a positional game. Sometimes it works and it's rewarding, and sometimes it's just pissing in the wind and getting my clothes soaked. Maybe I should just drink more so I don't notice the warm backspray.
Posted by koadah on 2015-02-23 01:08:10
I think there is a game option for 0 mens on LoS. I've never got around to trying it though.
Claw & MB not stacking + PO on injury only suits me for now.
At least until the rematch with Bill's WMDs ;)
Posted by koadah on 2015-02-23 01:11:27
Just seen Bill clear the pitch again.
1-0 and only 1 perm may not look too bad but "oh the KOs"
Posted by NerdBird on 2015-02-23 14:35:37
THe KO's are a big part of the story that is not seen in match reports. With Claw + MB KO's are plentiful. Which allows your opponent even more blocks...which nets more KO's and Injuries. To me that is the biggest flaw with CRP; some teams if they win the coin toss pretty much have won the game or guaranteed a tie. In CRP that is very evident since everyone is running 11 man rosters....
Loners should take you to 16 men minus the amount of money you have to purchase linemen. So if you have a team that has 70K Linemen and you have 140K in the bank, your roster would go up to 14 players because you have enough money to buy 2 linemen but did not. If you had 280k in the bank, your roster would go up to 12 players because you have enough to buy 4. I truly believe there should be some hinderance to having 3 million in the bank....
Posted by albinv on 2015-02-23 20:25:25
"...and I will continue to try and play a positional game. Sometimes it works and it's rewarding, and sometimes it's just pissing in the wind and getting my clothes soaked. Maybe I should just drink more so I don't notice the warm backspray."
lol funny stuff.
Gotta agree on the concession rules mostly. I take quite a heap of illegal concessions at times. And apart from the time and hassle you have to invest reporting it to the admins, if i had visited the admins channel every time for it, im pretty sure it would have wrecked both parties nerves in the end. Also they most likely would have seen me as greedy power hungry troublemaker or something who resists on every little win he can get. However i always took my time explaining the matter to those coaches via pm - which, yeah takes quite some time accumulated. Nowadays i suck it up as it seems the best for everyone.
And have also committed concedes myself where before i followed the "never-give-up" attitude die-hard.
I guess in the end the rule is there so fumbbl hasnt to deal with people conceding their games early on in masses. Which would destroy - or at least damage - the site.
But i totally agree with you - many games are a sealed affair early on, having to waste an hour on it sucks immensely, period. Those who follow the rules strictly for seeing it as "mannly" are deluded, its a board game where adults play football with monster miniatures. Come on, go figure.
I also would concede if i got groinkicked and knocked in the face 6 times by some guys somewhere in a dark back alley and find comfort in the fact someone probably broke his knuckles on my dull pighead in the process.
Unfortunately the real (modern) world only leaves little room for morally righteous behaviour nowadays.
Koadah is the guy that (mostly) always is right! :) 1+
Let's make this the longest blog post on fumbbl ever, shall we? Why? Because we can.
Seriously though, there is some interesting and funny stuff among here and the controversial parts were interesting and not foul, thats always a good thing imho.
It had to be a success. The initial post by brasky was already so funny/ ironic me thinks. :D
Best blog in awhile.