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Recent Forum Topics  Secret Stunty Cup - ... | DIBBL Awards | Blood Bowl 2024 Edit... |
2015-12-02 05:59:35
6 votes, rating 3.2
6 votes, rating 3.2
Are Secret Weapons Just Bad?
Before we get started, I should note that my questions here are mostly rhetorical. I started this train of though after I read the designer's note in the roster section of the rule book. For those who are not familiar, "Some of the above 21 teams are more challenging than the others to play either because of their skills requiring advanced strategies to be effective or because they have difficulty winning..." Now we can move on to the actual topic.
Over the weekend, I played a few games with my Orc team. I picked my opponents such that the team value difference would allow me to induce a couple of the secret weapon players. Specifically, I tried out Bomber Dribblesnot (bombardier) and Ugroth Bolgrot (chainsaw). Results were disappointing.
Despite reading the rules a couple of times, I misused the bomber and threw my first bomb directly at an elf instead into one of the elf's tackle zones. My opponent was nice enough to explain what I had done wrong, but not until after he intercepted the bomb and threw it back. The bomber was KO'd - yay stunty! - and I suffered a turnover.
For the chainsaw, there were no misunderstandings of the rules. However, that didn't mean that the chainsaw wielder was used correctly. Initially, I was treating him like another lineman. This is a bad idea. The result was a couple of turns of uneventful grinding followed by getting crowd surfed. Also, the kickback mechanic makes wielder unreliable and in combination with +3 to AV rolls could mean the chainsaw wielder does nothing except hurt themselves.
These negatives alone should be sufficient to discourage the use in serious games of Blood Bowl. However, these "star players" have to additional drawbacks: loner and secret weapon. Difficulty using rerolls and only one drive are significant. Were secret weapons previously overpowered? Are secret weapons just intended to be bad?
While I would appreciate an answer to these questions, my real concern is broader. In a game as complex Blood Bowl, it is inevitable some choices (like block) are better than others (like pass block). Generally, a designer will try to make the choices balanced then accept that it can't be perfect. Is Blood Bowl supposed to be balanced or are these bad choices intentional on the part of the designer(s)?
Sal-utations
Over the weekend, I played a few games with my Orc team. I picked my opponents such that the team value difference would allow me to induce a couple of the secret weapon players. Specifically, I tried out Bomber Dribblesnot (bombardier) and Ugroth Bolgrot (chainsaw). Results were disappointing.
Despite reading the rules a couple of times, I misused the bomber and threw my first bomb directly at an elf instead into one of the elf's tackle zones. My opponent was nice enough to explain what I had done wrong, but not until after he intercepted the bomb and threw it back. The bomber was KO'd - yay stunty! - and I suffered a turnover.
For the chainsaw, there were no misunderstandings of the rules. However, that didn't mean that the chainsaw wielder was used correctly. Initially, I was treating him like another lineman. This is a bad idea. The result was a couple of turns of uneventful grinding followed by getting crowd surfed. Also, the kickback mechanic makes wielder unreliable and in combination with +3 to AV rolls could mean the chainsaw wielder does nothing except hurt themselves.
These negatives alone should be sufficient to discourage the use in serious games of Blood Bowl. However, these "star players" have to additional drawbacks: loner and secret weapon. Difficulty using rerolls and only one drive are significant. Were secret weapons previously overpowered? Are secret weapons just intended to be bad?
While I would appreciate an answer to these questions, my real concern is broader. In a game as complex Blood Bowl, it is inevitable some choices (like block) are better than others (like pass block). Generally, a designer will try to make the choices balanced then accept that it can't be perfect. Is Blood Bowl supposed to be balanced or are these bad choices intentional on the part of the designer(s)?
Sal-utations
Comments
Posted by pythrr on 2015-12-02 06:05:21
a properly used chainsaw (with decent dice, a bribe, and fouling) can destroy an opponents team in a few turns.
sure, a few 1s and it kills itself, but its a gamble.
sure, a few 1s and it kills itself, but its a gamble.
Posted by pythrr on 2015-12-02 06:06:39
also -- you misused both stars, and therefore they are useless? huh?
Posted by NerdBird on 2015-12-02 06:30:06
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3591737
sometimes this happens. Seriously though, if used correctly secret weapons can break the game. They are meant to be fun and unpredictable.
sometimes this happens. Seriously though, if used correctly secret weapons can break the game. They are meant to be fun and unpredictable.
Posted by MisterFurious on 2015-12-02 06:41:48
They can be very, very good or very, very bad depending on dice and/or coaching skill. I recommend spectating some Stunty Leeg games to see how much damage bombs and chainsaws can do.
I'd also like to point out that Blood Bowl is a very random game and you really shouldn't be hyper analyzing and taking anything too seriously. This is a game were one bad dice roll can cost you the entire game. The Secret Weapons are meant to be fun and that's all. If you're going to analyze statistics and data to find out if they're usage is optimal, then you're probably playing the wrong game.
I'd also like to point out that Blood Bowl is a very random game and you really shouldn't be hyper analyzing and taking anything too seriously. This is a game were one bad dice roll can cost you the entire game. The Secret Weapons are meant to be fun and that's all. If you're going to analyze statistics and data to find out if they're usage is optimal, then you're probably playing the wrong game.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-12-02 06:47:22
Yeah, how can you have an opinion on them when you have yet to use them properly. Sure they both take some time to learn. Both can be lethal.
Your opponent was very nice to tell you what you did wrong. In a competitive division, he really should only do that after the game, otherwise it's 'coaching'.
Your opponent was very nice to tell you what you did wrong. In a competitive division, he really should only do that after the game, otherwise it's 'coaching'.
Posted by Fortis on 2015-12-02 07:04:57
Some are better than others. The Orc Chainsaw is noted as not being a particularly good chainsaw fwiw.
Anyway, as has been pointed out, you used both of them incorrectly.
The Bombardier is the easiest to correct, as you've already had pointed out, throw it into some tackle zones, avoid interceptions if possible, don't get greedy vs elves or catchers and go for a safer throw. Worth noting that the Secret Player bomb isn't as good as the on roster one which can get hail mary pass and/or accurate.
Chainsaws are best used to foul, not to block. And you will often pair them with a bribe as stated above. You use them sort of the same way as a DP player, but with the sort of space protection that you give a prone POer. Start the drive with your Saw covered off the LOS then once you have a high value piece down get some assists in (you don't need as many as with DP) and then chainsaw foul early if you have bribe support or after all necessary actions if no bribe. A couple of turns of +3 fouling and you're going to end up with a significant numbers advantage.
The Secret Weapons aren't "bad", they are just a little tricky to use well. The Ball and Chain also has a bunch of tricks that make it great but in non-obvious ways.
Anyway, as has been pointed out, you used both of them incorrectly.
The Bombardier is the easiest to correct, as you've already had pointed out, throw it into some tackle zones, avoid interceptions if possible, don't get greedy vs elves or catchers and go for a safer throw. Worth noting that the Secret Player bomb isn't as good as the on roster one which can get hail mary pass and/or accurate.
Chainsaws are best used to foul, not to block. And you will often pair them with a bribe as stated above. You use them sort of the same way as a DP player, but with the sort of space protection that you give a prone POer. Start the drive with your Saw covered off the LOS then once you have a high value piece down get some assists in (you don't need as many as with DP) and then chainsaw foul early if you have bribe support or after all necessary actions if no bribe. A couple of turns of +3 fouling and you're going to end up with a significant numbers advantage.
The Secret Weapons aren't "bad", they are just a little tricky to use well. The Ball and Chain also has a bunch of tricks that make it great but in non-obvious ways.
Posted by Dunenzed on 2015-12-02 07:18:10
I think you guys might be being a bit harsh. I'm finding these blogs to be reasonably entertaining, and I think the questions are good questions to be asking.
Personally I find the secret weapon rule interesting as it can encourage your opponent to take a quick score if fielded on defense - which in turn can open the door to you winning the game even if they are sent off after 2 turns.
As for your broader question, no the game is not designed to be balanced. Many bad choices are intentional, others unintentional. It is a game that allows for high risk high reward strategies (which the secret weapons fall into) to sometimes counter coaching or team skill.
The game design is such that as you get better with the game you can shift to less optimal races and team builds if you want more of a challenge or a different gaming experience.
Personally I find the secret weapon rule interesting as it can encourage your opponent to take a quick score if fielded on defense - which in turn can open the door to you winning the game even if they are sent off after 2 turns.
As for your broader question, no the game is not designed to be balanced. Many bad choices are intentional, others unintentional. It is a game that allows for high risk high reward strategies (which the secret weapons fall into) to sometimes counter coaching or team skill.
The game design is such that as you get better with the game you can shift to less optimal races and team builds if you want more of a challenge or a different gaming experience.
Posted by Bloodfeast on 2015-12-02 07:19:01
As a coach who love goblins I must say that the weapons is what makes goblins dangerous, and it all comes down to when to use the weapons. And as inducements it is important who your enemys is.
Bombers: Low AG teams! Can be quite effective against teams that moves in Cages!
Chainsaw: Low armour teams! I keep him in the back to welcome gutterrunners and catchers that try to infest my side of the pitch AND if u have a bribe or two they are excellent Dirty players!
ball and chain: When reciving and perfect if u plan to stall the game for a complete 8 rounds Before scoring!
Bombers: Low AG teams! Can be quite effective against teams that moves in Cages!
Chainsaw: Low armour teams! I keep him in the back to welcome gutterrunners and catchers that try to infest my side of the pitch AND if u have a bribe or two they are excellent Dirty players!
ball and chain: When reciving and perfect if u plan to stall the game for a complete 8 rounds Before scoring!
Posted by Antithesisoftime on 2015-12-02 07:29:55
The trick to using a bomber is to mark anyone who could intercept, while still staying out of the blast radius. Never directly target an opposing player, unless they're low AG, and even then, expect them to roll a 6 to catch it. If you use a Bomber who is a part of the team, rather than an inducement, Hail Mary Pass is the single best skill he can take.
Saws are best used to gangfoul high AV players such as Treemen and Ogres, or to blitz low AV players like Gutter Runners, Halflings, or Elves. Never use a saw to mark, because the saw adds +3 to any roll against his AV. (Exception, if you can put guards with your saw to change the block match, he can be intimidating standing next to a big star on the opposing team). Think of your Saw as a Wardancer with MB, PO, +ST, and +MA. You'd never leave that dancer in a position to be easily hit, so why would you do the same with a saw?
Saws are best used to gangfoul high AV players such as Treemen and Ogres, or to blitz low AV players like Gutter Runners, Halflings, or Elves. Never use a saw to mark, because the saw adds +3 to any roll against his AV. (Exception, if you can put guards with your saw to change the block match, he can be intimidating standing next to a big star on the opposing team). Think of your Saw as a Wardancer with MB, PO, +ST, and +MA. You'd never leave that dancer in a position to be easily hit, so why would you do the same with a saw?
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-12-02 07:55:14
"Generally, a designer will try to make the choices balanced then accept that it can't be perfect. Is Blood Bowl supposed to be balanced or are these bad choices intentional on the part of the designer(s)?"
I agree that this is a sentiment in modern games that has resulted out of 20 years competitive internet gaming. Although you are right that games should be approached this way, it isn't something game designers always put focus on.
Even here on Fumbbl I have been in heated debates about the topic with people who just don't get it. The most acceptable approach for a new rule change I have seen is called 'narrowing the tiers' which sort of reflects on the creators belief that races should not be equal, that some sort of unwritten hierarchy of tiers exist in the game and that the game design should be merely focusing on narrowing those tiers rather than do its best to really balance every team.
The classic introduction to BB knows two lower tier races, Goblins and Haflings, which are basically just supposed to be played for their entertainment value and not for competitiveness.
What we have today in tiers in CRP however, which I think is now the 9th revision of the rules is mostly the result of pracitcal limits to balancing that are feasible in a board game.
The so called challenging races aren't challenging because they were designed to be but rather because they happen to be.
That doesn't mean they are unbalanced. Like, take a race like chaos, it is an absolutely predominant race on high TV. Almost unchallenged even, yet it is on the list because it starts out very poorly.
You have to see that with board games you can't afford the same complexity as with a computer game. The mechanics of the game have to be simple enough for a casual gamer to look through all of it and to be able to apply and use all of it without having to rely on a calculator or stuff like that.
So the problem with a game like BB is the amount of layers you can look at it and approach it. There is no strict idea in the rules about how the game is supposed to be played. It could be in a league, it could be in an open environment, it could be some mixed form, it could be knockout.
I think the form I have been reading suggested in the rulebook was some sort of open environment with a knockout finale or something.
The balance of skills that has been achieved over the years takes into account that not every race performs equally well on every TV, considering every environment.
That is an incredibly broad task.
And what is fascinating about it and so amazing about this game is that you basically still can win with any race at any TV against any race.
And that is in terms of balancing a remarkable accomplishment. (Perhaps short of a Halfling - Dwarf match but people have proofed me wrong about that too.)
And that isn't something you will accomplish through luck, those are the exactly the feats you need skill for to do.
As for skills like Block vs Pass Block: We have seen a remarkable amount of balancing with the mid tier skills in LRB5. There are basically tons of skills that are all as good as the other, with stuff like Pass Block perhaps more at the bottom.
Skills like Block, Guard, Dodge and Mighty Blow have merely been unchanged, which makes them stand out now because they always have been some of the strongest skills in the game.
Call it perhaps a historical remnant the BBRC didn't want to change to not mess up the known and tested balance of the game entirely.
For us today that means that before you get to a point where you can basically pick skills freely you first have to take everything you can from the suggested divine 4.
And with CRP we also have a new skill joining the ranks of the best which is Piling On, meaning if you develop a basher you basically have to put so many essentials on him that you won't get a chance to be really creative about it.
Piling On is commonly considered in the community as a true mistake/flaw of the CRP.
Although it is not really stronger or better than MB. But the difference is indeed that it hasn't helped to mitigate the issue of skill tiers but rather helped to create a gap.
I agree that this is a sentiment in modern games that has resulted out of 20 years competitive internet gaming. Although you are right that games should be approached this way, it isn't something game designers always put focus on.
Even here on Fumbbl I have been in heated debates about the topic with people who just don't get it. The most acceptable approach for a new rule change I have seen is called 'narrowing the tiers' which sort of reflects on the creators belief that races should not be equal, that some sort of unwritten hierarchy of tiers exist in the game and that the game design should be merely focusing on narrowing those tiers rather than do its best to really balance every team.
The classic introduction to BB knows two lower tier races, Goblins and Haflings, which are basically just supposed to be played for their entertainment value and not for competitiveness.
What we have today in tiers in CRP however, which I think is now the 9th revision of the rules is mostly the result of pracitcal limits to balancing that are feasible in a board game.
The so called challenging races aren't challenging because they were designed to be but rather because they happen to be.
That doesn't mean they are unbalanced. Like, take a race like chaos, it is an absolutely predominant race on high TV. Almost unchallenged even, yet it is on the list because it starts out very poorly.
You have to see that with board games you can't afford the same complexity as with a computer game. The mechanics of the game have to be simple enough for a casual gamer to look through all of it and to be able to apply and use all of it without having to rely on a calculator or stuff like that.
So the problem with a game like BB is the amount of layers you can look at it and approach it. There is no strict idea in the rules about how the game is supposed to be played. It could be in a league, it could be in an open environment, it could be some mixed form, it could be knockout.
I think the form I have been reading suggested in the rulebook was some sort of open environment with a knockout finale or something.
The balance of skills that has been achieved over the years takes into account that not every race performs equally well on every TV, considering every environment.
That is an incredibly broad task.
And what is fascinating about it and so amazing about this game is that you basically still can win with any race at any TV against any race.
And that is in terms of balancing a remarkable accomplishment. (Perhaps short of a Halfling - Dwarf match but people have proofed me wrong about that too.)
And that isn't something you will accomplish through luck, those are the exactly the feats you need skill for to do.
As for skills like Block vs Pass Block: We have seen a remarkable amount of balancing with the mid tier skills in LRB5. There are basically tons of skills that are all as good as the other, with stuff like Pass Block perhaps more at the bottom.
Skills like Block, Guard, Dodge and Mighty Blow have merely been unchanged, which makes them stand out now because they always have been some of the strongest skills in the game.
Call it perhaps a historical remnant the BBRC didn't want to change to not mess up the known and tested balance of the game entirely.
For us today that means that before you get to a point where you can basically pick skills freely you first have to take everything you can from the suggested divine 4.
And with CRP we also have a new skill joining the ranks of the best which is Piling On, meaning if you develop a basher you basically have to put so many essentials on him that you won't get a chance to be really creative about it.
Piling On is commonly considered in the community as a true mistake/flaw of the CRP.
Although it is not really stronger or better than MB. But the difference is indeed that it hasn't helped to mitigate the issue of skill tiers but rather helped to create a gap.
Posted by Garion on 2015-12-02 09:05:10
In short yes they are pretty crap. The secret weapon roll should never have been removed it was a terrible terrible change to the game. But if used right you can get lucky with them occasionally
Posted by the_Sage on 2015-12-02 09:35:57
the bomber is really not that good, but with some luck he can overturn a game on defense (throwing a bomb into a cage). Don't rely on him, though. The chainsaw is fantastic, but with loner, he is a risk. Most inducements are deliberately unreliable; the chainsaw needs a 2+ with loner or suicide, the wizard needs a 2+ or 4+, many stars lack block and or dodge (again, combined with loner). The few exceptions are players like Slible and Griff; they add reliability to your team with core skills.
Rostered secret weapons are (a little) better: the fanatic and saw on a goblin team are reasonably reliable, though there too, the bomber is kind of rubbish without some rolls.
Rostered secret weapons are (a little) better: the fanatic and saw on a goblin team are reasonably reliable, though there too, the bomber is kind of rubbish without some rolls.
Posted by Shades_SteelFist on 2015-12-02 10:41:34
Just because your bad at using weapon players it does not mean that the weapon players are bad
Posted by zakatan on 2015-12-02 11:14:26
Secret Weapons have *potential* to be very affective, but they rarely are. Chainsaws have a huge target upon their heads and are the prime target for blitzes until they are out, often at a positioning cost for the opposition. Bombers are like wizards, as they have the potential to destroy any cage at any time. This alone should make your opponent try to avoid tight cages to prevent a single bomb from destroying the whole defensive setup, and therefore it opens better opportunities for you to attack the cage.
Secret Weapons are more about what they *can* do than what they *actually* do. Use their psicological factor to your favor, as their mere presence on the field is very disruptive for any team. Use them to your discretion, choose wisely when to induce them (no bomber vs elves...), and they may be worth their cost. Don't blitz with the chainsaw, throw your bombs far from your players (or don't throw them at all if there is any risk), care for their positioning...
Be aware that even if you use them wisely, they will most likely let you down at some point.
Secret Weapons are more about what they *can* do than what they *actually* do. Use their psicological factor to your favor, as their mere presence on the field is very disruptive for any team. Use them to your discretion, choose wisely when to induce them (no bomber vs elves...), and they may be worth their cost. Don't blitz with the chainsaw, throw your bombs far from your players (or don't throw them at all if there is any risk), care for their positioning...
Be aware that even if you use them wisely, they will most likely let you down at some point.
Posted by mister__joshua on 2015-12-02 11:19:27
Bomber, for 60k, is a great value inducement IMO. It's less reliable, but just like a Wiz if you're in a pinch you can lob a bomb into a cage.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-12-02 12:20:31
Yeah they are bad. High risk with dubious reward.
Posted by cdassak on 2015-12-02 14:45:57
Playing with fire (Nuffle) saying that on the brink of a Goblin sprint Jimmy. :P
Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2015-12-02 15:50:56
Nobbla is great. Blodge chainsaw :D
Posted by mrt1212 on 2015-12-02 18:23:18
They ratchet the variance up to 11. They're fun but the inconsistency and skill access make Goblins a lot harder than they could be.
Posted by Malmir on 2015-12-02 19:26:59
I went through a phase where every time someone hired a chainsaw against me, something good got ripped. It probably amounted to about six consecutive games and was always a rip. I actually went and checked the rules to see what the hell the chainsaw was adding to injury - obviously when I found it was armour only then some nuffle cursing was the result - that didn't help, but was satisfying.
Posted by pythrr on 2015-12-02 21:45:21
"Piling On is commonly considered in the community as a true mistake/flaw of the CRP.
Although it is not really stronger or better than MB."
^^ utter crap.
Although it is not really stronger or better than MB."
^^ utter crap.
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-12-03 11:52:56
Which part?
That it is a flaw or that it is not really stronger than MB? Or Both?
That it is a flaw or that it is not really stronger than MB? Or Both?
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-12-03 19:14:09
Well, I stand corrected. Pythrr thinks something else about PO.