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2016-01-26 06:01:17
11 votes, rating 3.6
11 votes, rating 3.6
Value of Skill Categories
I am back. Though less than I have hoped. That being said, I am considering be adjusting the schedule. Stay tuned.
I originally found Blood Bowl thanks to youtubers TotalBiscuit and cKnoor. I recently went a watched a few games with the Brettonnians in Blood Bowl 2. This got me thinking about the Brettonian roster and its development. The best forum thread I could find on the team is here.
TLDR for the thread: knights/blitzers change to from GS to GP skill access is bad for player development See the fumbbl Brettonnian roster for the baseline.
So the critical difference is the skill access for a 7/3/3/8 player that starts with block, dauntless, and catch. The primary question is how to develop this player. Strength access: guard, mighty blow, piling, and tackle on are the obvious choices because murder is a good strategy in our wonderful game. Passing access: sure hands, pass, nerves of steel, and dump off could work. However, the last couple skills feel low impact. The alternative is to ignore passing: tackle, strip ball, leader, or frenzy. The bottom line is that the murder skills just provide so much more for the team value.
Regardless of what you think of the rosters, the consensus on player development shows something important. Unless the team has good catchers (like elves or gutter runners), most of the passing skills are not worth 20k of team value. To further illustrate my point, consider adding this to the Chaos roster:
0-2 Beastman Passer 70k 6/3/3/8 horns pass GPM
If there are no catchers, the passer has negative value compared to a normal beastman with strength access. Indeed, the only way not to lose team value is a runner build with skills like sure hands, block, and leader. The 2nd one would never be purchased by coaches intent on maximizing team value.
What's the point of all this? Simply that skill categories are not created equal. To get the most bang for your team value, prefer to level up players with general, strength, agility, passing, and *mutation in that order. For players with access to multiple categories, combinations that are earlier in the list takes priority over the players that come later. So for humans, prioritize blitzers over catchers over throwers over linemen.
Sal-utations
*Mutation is last because rerolls are better than +1 to a roll. We aren't ignoring claw, just saying that all of the other skills are strictly worst than similar skills in the other categories.
I originally found Blood Bowl thanks to youtubers TotalBiscuit and cKnoor. I recently went a watched a few games with the Brettonnians in Blood Bowl 2. This got me thinking about the Brettonian roster and its development. The best forum thread I could find on the team is here.
TLDR for the thread: knights/blitzers change to from GS to GP skill access is bad for player development See the fumbbl Brettonnian roster for the baseline.
So the critical difference is the skill access for a 7/3/3/8 player that starts with block, dauntless, and catch. The primary question is how to develop this player. Strength access: guard, mighty blow, piling, and tackle on are the obvious choices because murder is a good strategy in our wonderful game. Passing access: sure hands, pass, nerves of steel, and dump off could work. However, the last couple skills feel low impact. The alternative is to ignore passing: tackle, strip ball, leader, or frenzy. The bottom line is that the murder skills just provide so much more for the team value.
Regardless of what you think of the rosters, the consensus on player development shows something important. Unless the team has good catchers (like elves or gutter runners), most of the passing skills are not worth 20k of team value. To further illustrate my point, consider adding this to the Chaos roster:
0-2 Beastman Passer 70k 6/3/3/8 horns pass GPM
If there are no catchers, the passer has negative value compared to a normal beastman with strength access. Indeed, the only way not to lose team value is a runner build with skills like sure hands, block, and leader. The 2nd one would never be purchased by coaches intent on maximizing team value.
What's the point of all this? Simply that skill categories are not created equal. To get the most bang for your team value, prefer to level up players with general, strength, agility, passing, and *mutation in that order. For players with access to multiple categories, combinations that are earlier in the list takes priority over the players that come later. So for humans, prioritize blitzers over catchers over throwers over linemen.
Sal-utations
*Mutation is last because rerolls are better than +1 to a roll. We aren't ignoring claw, just saying that all of the other skills are strictly worst than similar skills in the other categories.
Comments
Posted by delusional on 2016-01-26 09:05:57
I think you miss the point. I would love to have a:
0-2 Beastman Passer 70k 6/3/3/8 horns pass GPM
In a Chaos team. He can be my one loan player who collects the ball, gets short hands and offloads it to someone while the rest of my team bash, bash, bash. With a passer I can move the game along faster and score. I then use my doubles to develop a catcher or just use rerolls to catch the ball. In fact i would enter a tournament now if i had said player on a Chaos team.
What you see is a Blitzer who has Passing access:
That's as bad as giving my Ogre on humans passing access. He don't throw the ball he is there to Bash, bash bash. This is the player who I want to have Mighty Blow, Guard or some other kill skill.
I see the Brittonians as a Botched Amazons/Norse. The Yeoman are great with Fend, but what will I spend the money on? Wow I have 4 blitzers who can catch, possibly blitz larger guys but may not win the block and who I probably cannot move close to the ball. If they had Horns, maybe they could blitz, if they had speed maybe they could score. But all the players seem slow (or more precisely, not FAST). While I can possibly stop a non elf team for two turns, I can't outblitz them, I can't outrun them and my roadblock will probably die soon.
0-2 Beastman Passer 70k 6/3/3/8 horns pass GPM
In a Chaos team. He can be my one loan player who collects the ball, gets short hands and offloads it to someone while the rest of my team bash, bash, bash. With a passer I can move the game along faster and score. I then use my doubles to develop a catcher or just use rerolls to catch the ball. In fact i would enter a tournament now if i had said player on a Chaos team.
What you see is a Blitzer who has Passing access:
That's as bad as giving my Ogre on humans passing access. He don't throw the ball he is there to Bash, bash bash. This is the player who I want to have Mighty Blow, Guard or some other kill skill.
I see the Brittonians as a Botched Amazons/Norse. The Yeoman are great with Fend, but what will I spend the money on? Wow I have 4 blitzers who can catch, possibly blitz larger guys but may not win the block and who I probably cannot move close to the ball. If they had Horns, maybe they could blitz, if they had speed maybe they could score. But all the players seem slow (or more precisely, not FAST). While I can possibly stop a non elf team for two turns, I can't outblitz them, I can't outrun them and my roadblock will probably die soon.
Posted by the_Sage on 2016-01-26 09:15:37
P access is something that's decent on one player, but rubbish on 4. GA & S access are all something you want on 11 players. (G&S slightly more so than G&A, which is why elves get AG4 to compensate for the lack of S access).
Posted by the_Sage on 2016-01-26 09:19:03
btw if you're wondering why you're getting bad ratings, it's because fumbbl is a fairly closed community; discussing tabletop is somewhat appreciated here (though someone with 0 fumbbl games played asking advice on his TT team will still take some chaff for it), but discussing cyanide really isn't welcomed at all. A pity, because the fumbbl community has a lot of wisdom to offer, and the rest of the bloodbowl community could really use some of it.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2016-01-26 09:41:45
*The idea of the Bretonnian roster is that the bliters are the catchers and the throwers. So it's a little different than your analogy.
However you're conclusion is right, it doesn't work. Apparently it did in PBeM though.
the_sage wrote "(G&S slightly more so than G&A, which is why elves get AG4 to compensate for the lack of S access)."
Other way around, if anything. They get AG4 access across the board, because they are more agile than other races. Lack of S access may have been to balance or to represent they're a flair team not a bash team.
What they used to have was increased passing and catching stats (A lineman was as good as a human thrower and a human catcher at passing and throwing) and the same agility. However when the stats were merged they had to have AG4. They and Dwarfs are seen as superior beings to a human; Slann too.
the_Sage also wrote "btw if you're wondering why you're getting bad ratings, it's because fumbbl is a fairly closed community;"
Yeah that maybe the case, and it probably is with this one. The OP has had some good ratings on past blogs. What put me off his blogs, was when he tried to dictate who was welcome to comment and that comments should stay on topic. Totally against the concept of blog commenting. I don't usually rate, but I rated the blogs with the above comments a 1. So that maybe an issue with his low score. But most likely a Cyanide thing.
Personally I'm interested in what Cyanide do, but frustrated with their decisions. I'd love to have new rosters, but want the ones that were made for them to go away with passion. So........the less they're discussed, the less chance the community here in 2 years will be clamoring for Khorne and Bretonnians becuase they're in the 'official' game.
However you're conclusion is right, it doesn't work. Apparently it did in PBeM though.
the_sage wrote "(G&S slightly more so than G&A, which is why elves get AG4 to compensate for the lack of S access)."
Other way around, if anything. They get AG4 access across the board, because they are more agile than other races. Lack of S access may have been to balance or to represent they're a flair team not a bash team.
What they used to have was increased passing and catching stats (A lineman was as good as a human thrower and a human catcher at passing and throwing) and the same agility. However when the stats were merged they had to have AG4. They and Dwarfs are seen as superior beings to a human; Slann too.
the_Sage also wrote "btw if you're wondering why you're getting bad ratings, it's because fumbbl is a fairly closed community;"
Yeah that maybe the case, and it probably is with this one. The OP has had some good ratings on past blogs. What put me off his blogs, was when he tried to dictate who was welcome to comment and that comments should stay on topic. Totally against the concept of blog commenting. I don't usually rate, but I rated the blogs with the above comments a 1. So that maybe an issue with his low score. But most likely a Cyanide thing.
Personally I'm interested in what Cyanide do, but frustrated with their decisions. I'd love to have new rosters, but want the ones that were made for them to go away with passion. So........the less they're discussed, the less chance the community here in 2 years will be clamoring for Khorne and Bretonnians becuase they're in the 'official' game.
Posted by bghandras on 2016-01-26 11:20:46
Now i rated 6 in objection. (And to illustrate why ratings are overrated.)
@Harvestmouse
You said that nobody should tell people what to discuss about.
Then you said that you wish people never discuss cyanide, or anything remotely related.
I have never played cyanide, dont plan do do so, wont promote it ever, but your contradiction puzzles me, and i cant help but comment it.
@Harvestmouse
You said that nobody should tell people what to discuss about.
Then you said that you wish people never discuss cyanide, or anything remotely related.
I have never played cyanide, dont plan do do so, wont promote it ever, but your contradiction puzzles me, and i cant help but comment it.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2016-01-26 15:17:13
bghandras
1. My comment was that if you write a blog, you should not try to control who responds, or the direction of the responses
2. I don't remember or ever believe I've given you the idea that I think Cyanide shouldn't be discussed.
My feelings are:
A: I don't think games on there should be promoted on FUMBBL; just like the Cyanide forums do not allow the promotion of FUMBBL. That is to say, promoting matches or leagues, which is a conflict. Discussing FUMBBL over there is just about fine, as it should be here.
B: I really don't like the rosters they have added. So what I said was "So........the less they're discussed, the less chance the community here in 2 years will be clamoring for Khorne and Bretonnians because they're in the 'official' game."
Which was reference to the 2 rosters, not the game. I think when I was a member of staff I was pretty pro discussing Cyanide. I feel Input and opinions on what they're doing is great, especially the new rules they've added.
So I'm not anti Cyanide as a whole, but understand the feelings of those that are. Oh and I despise those 2 rosters!
In short; no contradiction.
1. My comment was that if you write a blog, you should not try to control who responds, or the direction of the responses
2. I don't remember or ever believe I've given you the idea that I think Cyanide shouldn't be discussed.
My feelings are:
A: I don't think games on there should be promoted on FUMBBL; just like the Cyanide forums do not allow the promotion of FUMBBL. That is to say, promoting matches or leagues, which is a conflict. Discussing FUMBBL over there is just about fine, as it should be here.
B: I really don't like the rosters they have added. So what I said was "So........the less they're discussed, the less chance the community here in 2 years will be clamoring for Khorne and Bretonnians because they're in the 'official' game."
Which was reference to the 2 rosters, not the game. I think when I was a member of staff I was pretty pro discussing Cyanide. I feel Input and opinions on what they're doing is great, especially the new rules they've added.
So I'm not anti Cyanide as a whole, but understand the feelings of those that are. Oh and I despise those 2 rosters!
In short; no contradiction.
Posted by NerdBird on 2016-01-26 16:09:07
I own all the Bloodbowl games...why? I don't know. Occasionally I play CE in the story mode because my team never ever dies or loses. They are up 20 almost 300 TV. The computer scored once on me on some fluky Elf thing in the few hundred games I played. You can put all mens on the LOS and nothing ever happens; it's wild. :-P
I bought BB2 because it looks cool, but beyond downloading it on steam have never booted it up. Online play is bullshit with Cyanide. I played 25 games or so online...no, I TRIED to play 25 games or so on Cyanide and only ever finished 8. People just bugger off and disconnect. I have no time for this. I am sure once you start developing a team it gets better, but who knows. Until players start retiring when you concede per the rules and until there is a penalty to those who disconnect, I will never touch it in regards to online play.
Cyanide has some wacky add-ons too, like the fact you can use a wizard twice in a match bewilders me. And all those armor/helmet/etc add-ons are bogus. That, and I hate the interface to play. It looks nice but the controls make life difficult.
I bought BB2 because it looks cool, but beyond downloading it on steam have never booted it up. Online play is bullshit with Cyanide. I played 25 games or so online...no, I TRIED to play 25 games or so on Cyanide and only ever finished 8. People just bugger off and disconnect. I have no time for this. I am sure once you start developing a team it gets better, but who knows. Until players start retiring when you concede per the rules and until there is a penalty to those who disconnect, I will never touch it in regards to online play.
Cyanide has some wacky add-ons too, like the fact you can use a wizard twice in a match bewilders me. And all those armor/helmet/etc add-ons are bogus. That, and I hate the interface to play. It looks nice but the controls make life difficult.
Posted by NerdBird on 2016-01-26 16:15:45
In regards to the Brettonian Roster....what a stupid POS roster. Really, the whole thing with the Brettonian Roster in WHFB was they had some of the best mounts in the game and were fast. I would like to see one on Horse or something.
Saying that a Grail Knight would never play blood bowl seems kind of silly to me. Nobility and especially PROUD nobility like to do things off of the battle field to hone their skills. To my knowledge nobility plays things like Polo. And when you are proud, losing is not an option you care to entertain. So I think it would make a lot of sense to port over units from the WHFB line since they are not always at war.....
Saying that a Grail Knight would never play blood bowl seems kind of silly to me. Nobility and especially PROUD nobility like to do things off of the battle field to hone their skills. To my knowledge nobility plays things like Polo. And when you are proud, losing is not an option you care to entertain. So I think it would make a lot of sense to port over units from the WHFB line since they are not always at war.....
Posted by Uedder on 2016-01-26 19:22:32
Yes Passing Access is only ever good on 1 player per team. Maximum 2 for a heavy passing team.
For Brets the path you want to go is DON'T develop the blitzer(S). They have good statline and good starting skills, so i'd buy them, but never go past 1 skill (leader/sure hands/tackle/frenzy). Blockers I'd get 2/3 and develop one as a killer and two as guarders.
The goal would most likely be heavy minmaxing, because that's where they are competitive. Once you give the opponents 5/6 skills you're basically done for.
For Brets the path you want to go is DON'T develop the blitzer(S). They have good statline and good starting skills, so i'd buy them, but never go past 1 skill (leader/sure hands/tackle/frenzy). Blockers I'd get 2/3 and develop one as a killer and two as guarders.
The goal would most likely be heavy minmaxing, because that's where they are competitive. Once you give the opponents 5/6 skills you're basically done for.