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2016-01-08 05:52:36
11 votes, rating 4.4
11 votes, rating 4.4
Skills: can Less be More?
Note, this is not a CPOMB post.
I recently heard a question about Blood Bowl that caused me to think about the game from a design perspective. I am an amateur game designer (mostly tabletop RPG homebrew and PC RTS custom maps), and I know a bit about the basics of design. So I will use a few design principles to answer the question, "What new skill should be added to Blood Bowl?"
Blood Bowl is mature game, so context of the current metagame is required to answer the question. The criteria for an existing game are narrower than a fresh design that is undefined. For our proposed change, we will consider
There are a few utility skills that have been proposed on the forums. However, most of the skill suggestions are changes to existing skills for the because the suggester perceives the skill as unfun. Should new or updated skills be balanced to be as useful as block, guard, and dodge? Or should they be more situational like dauntless, grab, and sprint? These questions must be addressed with any proposals.
So what's my suggestion? Remove unfun skill(s). Blood Bowl already has a very high level of complexity, and simplification is its own virtue. This type of solution would reduce complexity, solve a problem, and hopefully lead to more fun. The only downside is the potential to introduce a bigger problem than the one that was removed. Since I don't know enough about Blood Bowl to be more specific, I will not say anything more.
Sal-utations
I recently heard a question about Blood Bowl that caused me to think about the game from a design perspective. I am an amateur game designer (mostly tabletop RPG homebrew and PC RTS custom maps), and I know a bit about the basics of design. So I will use a few design principles to answer the question, "What new skill should be added to Blood Bowl?"
Blood Bowl is mature game, so context of the current metagame is required to answer the question. The criteria for an existing game are narrower than a fresh design that is undefined. For our proposed change, we will consider
- Is it fun? This is the most important.
- Does it match the theme? This is about it feeling like it fits with the rest.
- What are the current problems in the metagame? We aren't going to talk specifics here for obvious reasons.
- How complex are the changes? Complexity is bad.
- Is the change balanced? This is relative to other existing options.
There are a few utility skills that have been proposed on the forums. However, most of the skill suggestions are changes to existing skills for the because the suggester perceives the skill as unfun. Should new or updated skills be balanced to be as useful as block, guard, and dodge? Or should they be more situational like dauntless, grab, and sprint? These questions must be addressed with any proposals.
So what's my suggestion? Remove unfun skill(s). Blood Bowl already has a very high level of complexity, and simplification is its own virtue. This type of solution would reduce complexity, solve a problem, and hopefully lead to more fun. The only downside is the potential to introduce a bigger problem than the one that was removed. Since I don't know enough about Blood Bowl to be more specific, I will not say anything more.
Sal-utations
Comments
Posted by harvestmouse on 2016-01-08 06:07:02
The only skill I'd get rid of (for the progressive environment) is Leader. I really hate it, it's only worth is to save on TV, for the off set of not making the player any better. I can see it's worth in resurrection (where you have a certain amount of skills to be distributed) but in the progressive world, it's extremely negative. I think I'd prefer the old Luck (personal RR) instead.
PO, I'd like to keep as it is. I think it's important to have a super damaging tool. However, it shouldn't be as prolific as it is. I've suggested to ways of combating this.
Fairly recently (for some of us anyway). We saw the addition of new skills with LRB 5 onwards; those being wrestle, fend, grab, KOR and juggernaut (hmmm and maybe one other oh Sneaky Git, which was nice in principle). I think the addition of all these skills has definitely improved the game and tactics available. So here, more skills, more fun. Plus a lot of skills got a make over, with mixed results. So redesigned skills could be more or less fun.
I'd be all for some intelligent new skills. I'd also like to see some old skills (or how some of the skills used to work) come back.
What I would love to see, and have experimented with myself, is some traits. They did add some for the current ruleset, but could have gone further with both negative and positive. Lost in the warp, Voodoo powers, the illusionist. Think more funny rosters like Vamps. That's where I'd be looking to add something new.
PO, I'd like to keep as it is. I think it's important to have a super damaging tool. However, it shouldn't be as prolific as it is. I've suggested to ways of combating this.
Fairly recently (for some of us anyway). We saw the addition of new skills with LRB 5 onwards; those being wrestle, fend, grab, KOR and juggernaut (hmmm and maybe one other oh Sneaky Git, which was nice in principle). I think the addition of all these skills has definitely improved the game and tactics available. So here, more skills, more fun. Plus a lot of skills got a make over, with mixed results. So redesigned skills could be more or less fun.
I'd be all for some intelligent new skills. I'd also like to see some old skills (or how some of the skills used to work) come back.
What I would love to see, and have experimented with myself, is some traits. They did add some for the current ruleset, but could have gone further with both negative and positive. Lost in the warp, Voodoo powers, the illusionist. Think more funny rosters like Vamps. That's where I'd be looking to add something new.
Posted by NerdBird on 2016-01-08 07:58:20
Claw IMO is just an inanely stupid skill. The fact that a skill can cause a little elf the same possibility to be damaged as an Ogre is just insane.
I think PO should be an agility skill.
I think a rework of the tackle negating dodge in all manners could use a rework because of all Line Dwarfs starting with the skill. It makes little sense that a Dwarf could easily tackle and hurt a wood elf catcher or halfling. Maybe tackle only works if you have the same agility?
Bring back the Eye! I always thought this was a fun mechanic and a reason in TT to have a REF miniature!
I also think it is high time we separate the game from TT and computer. The computer game, since it is all automated, could be more complex while the TT game should be simplistic and less cumbersome.
One possible way to keep skills from being spammed would be inclement costs of skills. I.E. After 3 normal (let's say block) skills on a team they then cost 30K. The next one 40K...etc, etc. This would make some interesting builds and teams and force coaches to position better.
I think PO should be an agility skill.
I think a rework of the tackle negating dodge in all manners could use a rework because of all Line Dwarfs starting with the skill. It makes little sense that a Dwarf could easily tackle and hurt a wood elf catcher or halfling. Maybe tackle only works if you have the same agility?
Bring back the Eye! I always thought this was a fun mechanic and a reason in TT to have a REF miniature!
I also think it is high time we separate the game from TT and computer. The computer game, since it is all automated, could be more complex while the TT game should be simplistic and less cumbersome.
One possible way to keep skills from being spammed would be inclement costs of skills. I.E. After 3 normal (let's say block) skills on a team they then cost 30K. The next one 40K...etc, etc. This would make some interesting builds and teams and force coaches to position better.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2016-01-08 08:54:32
It'd be nice to sort out Claw. It works ok on it's own. However a menace in combos and horribly fluffwise.
Which would be the same with making PO an Agility skill. Halflings are more likely to effectively PO than an Ogre? That just doesn't work. There are a lot of suggestions, that would probably work very well.
Dodge is too good as it is! Tackle only really dominate horribly vs Stunty teams. If anything Dodge should be separated into the 2 different parts. If anything this might help stunty as it gives a great normal skill....maybe.
Separating the computer and TT game, I'm not sure either way. I think more of a problem is keeping Resurrection, Long Leagues and Perpetual together. I think these need different 'out of game' rules. Making in game TT and Computer different, would be far too confusing in my opinion.
Which would be the same with making PO an Agility skill. Halflings are more likely to effectively PO than an Ogre? That just doesn't work. There are a lot of suggestions, that would probably work very well.
Dodge is too good as it is! Tackle only really dominate horribly vs Stunty teams. If anything Dodge should be separated into the 2 different parts. If anything this might help stunty as it gives a great normal skill....maybe.
Separating the computer and TT game, I'm not sure either way. I think more of a problem is keeping Resurrection, Long Leagues and Perpetual together. I think these need different 'out of game' rules. Making in game TT and Computer different, would be far too confusing in my opinion.
Posted by Verminardo on 2016-01-08 09:12:18
Ha, a fellow tinker! *tips hat* What kind of RPG are you brewing?
CRP actually did make a lot of things a lot more streamlined, which made the game more accessible. I'm not sure "complex" vs. "simple" is the right term, in many instances it's more a question of "complicated" vs. "elegant". The complexitiy of Blood Bowl is the tactical depth in game play, not so much the layers of the rules. As for skills, I agree that adding new skills or bringing back traits is not the solution, for exactly the reasons you have stated. About removing skills, well, I really don't know.
Aside: When talking about making the game more simple, my thinking always goes along the lines of "what rule do I always have to look up because I can't remember". That's Tentacles and Shadowing for me, I never can remember how they work exactly, and I can never remember the odds.
CRP actually did make a lot of things a lot more streamlined, which made the game more accessible. I'm not sure "complex" vs. "simple" is the right term, in many instances it's more a question of "complicated" vs. "elegant". The complexitiy of Blood Bowl is the tactical depth in game play, not so much the layers of the rules. As for skills, I agree that adding new skills or bringing back traits is not the solution, for exactly the reasons you have stated. About removing skills, well, I really don't know.
Aside: When talking about making the game more simple, my thinking always goes along the lines of "what rule do I always have to look up because I can't remember". That's Tentacles and Shadowing for me, I never can remember how they work exactly, and I can never remember the odds.
Posted by Chainsaw on 2016-01-08 09:19:13
Originally PO was related to strength. Add the strength to the AV roll. That made sense. However, not everything in the game can or will make sense.
How come ogres and halflings take up the same amount of space on the pitch? Or should stunty players be able to double-occupy a square (not a bad idea) for an ST bonus?
The simplest way to mitigate claw is to make +STATs modifiers i.e. +AV is applied post-claw.
How come ogres and halflings take up the same amount of space on the pitch? Or should stunty players be able to double-occupy a square (not a bad idea) for an ST bonus?
The simplest way to mitigate claw is to make +STATs modifiers i.e. +AV is applied post-claw.
Posted by Chainsaw on 2016-01-08 09:22:21
@NerdBird:
"Maybe tackle only works if you have the same agility?"
HORRIBLE idea that would make agility teams invincible.
"Bring back the Eye!"
Great idea. It was a great mechanic. This combined with sneaky git sneaking into the kayo box on a 4+ and being able to assist in fouls if in tackle zones would make fouling more fun.
"Maybe tackle only works if you have the same agility?"
HORRIBLE idea that would make agility teams invincible.
"Bring back the Eye!"
Great idea. It was a great mechanic. This combined with sneaky git sneaking into the kayo box on a 4+ and being able to assist in fouls if in tackle zones would make fouling more fun.
Posted by Dunenzed on 2016-01-08 10:38:29
If we're talking purely new skills I'd suggest two ideas. One might be a smidge more serious than the other.
1) Grevious Harm (G) - This player fouls not just with his boot, but his whole body. When fouling the player may elect to go prone to reroll the Injury roll.
2) Falcon Throw (P) - When passing if the pass is accurate and targets an opposing player a stab attempt is resolved. If the stab fails the targeted player may attempt to catch the pass and a turnover is triggered. If the stab results in a player injury resolve scatter as normal, however a turnover does not occur.
1) Grevious Harm (G) - This player fouls not just with his boot, but his whole body. When fouling the player may elect to go prone to reroll the Injury roll.
2) Falcon Throw (P) - When passing if the pass is accurate and targets an opposing player a stab attempt is resolved. If the stab fails the targeted player may attempt to catch the pass and a turnover is triggered. If the stab results in a player injury resolve scatter as normal, however a turnover does not occur.
Posted by NerdBird on 2016-01-08 11:07:15
Dodge is not too good. Dodge is great until yoi face dwarves. Then it is jusr worthless. I think the Dodge/tackle thing is a big mistake in the game.
Posted by zakatan on 2016-01-08 11:40:11
The general rock-scissors-paper mecanics is poor game design for a game like BB, where you need to face a varied array of builds and races with little or no room to adapt.
And regarding the blog, I don't think reducing the number of skills would make BB a better game. A well thought complexity (that is, not like shadowing and tentacle mechanics) adds strategical and tactical depth to the game, which is a good thing. On the other hand, overpowered combos or skills (block, blodge, clawpomb) reduce the depth of the game in the sense that they are the easiest path to victory. This could be factored by tweaking skill/combos TV value according to their in-game performance, or tweaking the skills themselves so that every skills brings the same value to the game (that is, overhauling the whole BB skill system).
And regarding the blog, I don't think reducing the number of skills would make BB a better game. A well thought complexity (that is, not like shadowing and tentacle mechanics) adds strategical and tactical depth to the game, which is a good thing. On the other hand, overpowered combos or skills (block, blodge, clawpomb) reduce the depth of the game in the sense that they are the easiest path to victory. This could be factored by tweaking skill/combos TV value according to their in-game performance, or tweaking the skills themselves so that every skills brings the same value to the game (that is, overhauling the whole BB skill system).
Posted by zakatan on 2016-01-08 11:42:13
By the way, you should consider writing an article for the GLN with the knowledge acquired through these blogs.
Posted by koadah on 2016-01-08 13:38:18
The main problem with the rules is that people try to use the same set for very different environments.
That is never going to work well.
That is never going to work well.
Posted by Strider84 on 2016-01-08 15:37:45
Take this to a forum, please...
Posted by SalTheChin on 2016-01-08 18:26:23
So many comments yet so few that actually addressed the point of the post. Didn't I say this wasn't CPOMB post? Why are some of you assuming I am talking about Claw? Why are some of you talking about making new skills? Commendations to Zakatan and Verminardo for actually staying on topic.
Posted by DeathJester74 on 2016-01-08 19:30:28
Best skill set is without question CPOMB and if anything I would like to see it opened up to even MORE teams!!
No reason to remove skills, if anything more should be added!
No reason to remove skills, if anything more should be added!
Posted by Rbthma on 2016-01-08 20:29:54
Harvestmouse, you forgot "Fan Favourite", but it doesn't come into play much anyhow.
I like your list, fun is important & yes Blood Bowl is fun. I like the additional skills added since CRP so I wouldn't want to see any go & I think the complexity (in the interaction of skills) is what keeps Blood Bowl fun for many coaches.
BB is a fairly complex game & most newcomers struggle with the turnover & blocking mechanics- changing this however would completely change the game. Tweaking the TV, or skills might be best right now to encourage more diverse builds - that would make BB more fun.
great blog!
I like your list, fun is important & yes Blood Bowl is fun. I like the additional skills added since CRP so I wouldn't want to see any go & I think the complexity (in the interaction of skills) is what keeps Blood Bowl fun for many coaches.
BB is a fairly complex game & most newcomers struggle with the turnover & blocking mechanics- changing this however would completely change the game. Tweaking the TV, or skills might be best right now to encourage more diverse builds - that would make BB more fun.
great blog!
Posted by harvestmouse on 2016-01-08 20:41:23
Thrud had FF in previous editions.
Everything strays off topic, that's the nature of......nature. Not really sure how my first post was off topic though. OK.........I brought up PO and highlighted why I think new skills would be better than losing skills and...ok a little maybe.
Everything strays off topic, that's the nature of......nature. Not really sure how my first post was off topic though. OK.........I brought up PO and highlighted why I think new skills would be better than losing skills and...ok a little maybe.
Posted by Dunenzed on 2016-01-08 22:27:57
From the original post:
So I will use a few design principles to answer the question, "What new skill should be added to Blood Bowl?"
and,
So what's my suggestion? Remove unfun skill(s).
I suggest sir, that you went off topic first.
So I will use a few design principles to answer the question, "What new skill should be added to Blood Bowl?"
and,
So what's my suggestion? Remove unfun skill(s).
I suggest sir, that you went off topic first.
Posted by NerdBird on 2016-01-08 23:11:38
@Sal: Your OP was left open ended to pretty much morph any way the responders felt inclined. Do not take offense because it was not clear to me that everything being asked or insinuated was rhetorical.
Posted by Superlynx on 2016-01-09 00:12:58
Strider suggested to take this to a forum.
Can anyone post a link to a forum which would match the debated topic(s) here?
Can anyone post a link to a forum which would match the debated topic(s) here?