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2015-12-23 06:27:43
14 votes, rating 4.4
14 votes, rating 4.4
Tactics vs Strategy, part 1
Due to the upcoming holidays, I am going to be playing less Blood Bowl for the next week. Since I will have less direct material to discuss, the next few posts will be a bit more philosophical.
Is Blood Bowl a tactics or strategy game? To discover the answer, we need to define tactics, strategy, and how they relate to each other. In non-gaming discussions, tactics and strategy are essentially synonyms, and most dictionaries do not clearly distinguish them. Is the original question valid or are we just arguing semantics? Let's assume these definitions:
Strategy is a plan intended to achieve an overall aim.
Tactics are the actions to achieve a specific goal.
So what's the difference? Strategy is focused on the big picture, the broad choices. Tactics is the specifics, the details. Most games described as tactical or strategic have elements of both with varying emphasis. Therefore, it is useful to consider a sliding scale of tactics and strategy. If we then look at the elements of the Blood Bowl, we can then compare them to other well known games to discover where Blood Bowl falls on the sliding scale.
One final note, we will mostly be ignoring the amount of luck involved in Blood Bowl. The games we will be using as a comparison will be more deterministic. However, that doesn't change the big picture vs detail focus of a game.
Next time, we will look at the major elements of Blood Bowl and some similar games.
Sal-utations
Is Blood Bowl a tactics or strategy game? To discover the answer, we need to define tactics, strategy, and how they relate to each other. In non-gaming discussions, tactics and strategy are essentially synonyms, and most dictionaries do not clearly distinguish them. Is the original question valid or are we just arguing semantics? Let's assume these definitions:
Strategy is a plan intended to achieve an overall aim.
Tactics are the actions to achieve a specific goal.
So what's the difference? Strategy is focused on the big picture, the broad choices. Tactics is the specifics, the details. Most games described as tactical or strategic have elements of both with varying emphasis. Therefore, it is useful to consider a sliding scale of tactics and strategy. If we then look at the elements of the Blood Bowl, we can then compare them to other well known games to discover where Blood Bowl falls on the sliding scale.
One final note, we will mostly be ignoring the amount of luck involved in Blood Bowl. The games we will be using as a comparison will be more deterministic. However, that doesn't change the big picture vs detail focus of a game.
Next time, we will look at the major elements of Blood Bowl and some similar games.
Sal-utations
Comments
Posted by zakatan on 2015-12-23 09:44:42
You shouldn't ignore luck in this thread, as winning strategies involve risk managment, that is, minimising the impact of luck throughout the game.
Posted by Squiglet on 2015-12-23 10:30:51
I would suggest you also consider that there is a second level to Blood Bowl in the effect that actions in one game can affect the team going forwards into future games.
You often see teams taking the strategic decision to disengage late on in a match and avoid possible casualties that may affect future games. Teams sacrifice optimal positioning to protect key players from injury etc.
You often see teams taking the strategic decision to disengage late on in a match and avoid possible casualties that may affect future games. Teams sacrifice optimal positioning to protect key players from injury etc.
Posted by Endzone on 2015-12-23 11:17:56
The comparison to chess is an obvious one, both are 2 player turn based strategy games involving planning, tactics, positional play and clock management. Whilst chess could perhaps be described by way of synopsis by the above categories the fluff, meta game and progression elements add dimensions that chess doesn't have. Tactics in chess involve calculating combinations of concrete possibilities, however this is different in bloodbowl because of the dice element - so part of the calculations are about probabilities and choosing a particular option requires risk management due to risk of dice success / failure.
In chess, basically, people play to win (or at least draw). In Bloodbowl there are other competing goals relating to the fluff / meta and progression aspects.
If in this model chess was X% strategy and Y% tactics where X+Y = 100%, the I would say in bloodbowl strategy <X and tactics <Y because of the other elements.
In chess, basically, people play to win (or at least draw). In Bloodbowl there are other competing goals relating to the fluff / meta and progression aspects.
If in this model chess was X% strategy and Y% tactics where X+Y = 100%, the I would say in bloodbowl strategy <X and tactics <Y because of the other elements.
Posted by Angmarred on 2015-12-23 14:29:53
I feel that tactics are far more important in BB. Strategy, to me is stuff that you can learn fairly quickly by just following the forums and taking good advice
Strategy
Efiicient team building
-Having a primary and secondary ball handler
-Having a dedicated sacker or two
-Having a plan for building players
-Having a plan for doubles/stats
-Knowing who is expendable and who isn't
-Knowing what skill combos can be put to use
Plan to move the ball forward
-Know how to form and advance a basic cage
-Having appropriate cage corners that can keep up with the ball
Plan to attack the ball
-Know how to attack and/or stall a cage
-Having players who can mark cage corners
Tactics
Putting those plans into action in the fluid and random BB pitch
Knowing when to mark v. stay back
Knowing when to advance your cage v. stay still
Knowing when to attack the enemy cage v. letting it slowly advance
Knowing when to score fast v. slow
Knowing when to allow a fast score
Tactics are far more difficult IMO
Strategy
Efiicient team building
-Having a primary and secondary ball handler
-Having a dedicated sacker or two
-Having a plan for building players
-Having a plan for doubles/stats
-Knowing who is expendable and who isn't
-Knowing what skill combos can be put to use
Plan to move the ball forward
-Know how to form and advance a basic cage
-Having appropriate cage corners that can keep up with the ball
Plan to attack the ball
-Know how to attack and/or stall a cage
-Having players who can mark cage corners
Tactics
Putting those plans into action in the fluid and random BB pitch
Knowing when to mark v. stay back
Knowing when to advance your cage v. stay still
Knowing when to attack the enemy cage v. letting it slowly advance
Knowing when to score fast v. slow
Knowing when to allow a fast score
Tactics are far more difficult IMO
Posted by MattDakka on 2015-12-23 14:33:00
The roster, skill choices, firing/buying players are strategy indeed, while playing the match, deploying the players, moving them, performing action with them are all parts of tactic.
Posted by koadah on 2015-12-23 16:07:27
You use tactics to execute your strategy.
Posted by Beerox on 2015-12-23 16:50:00
It just might be both. What's more important on a warplane - weapons or wings?
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-12-23 16:56:35
wings
Posted by WingedHuman on 2015-12-23 19:00:10
Luck is only when preparation meets opportunity. I stopped believing in luck a long time ago. I applaud your attempt to look at the game without the random dice rolls.
Posted by fidius on 2015-12-23 19:15:12
LUCK IS PROBABILITY TAKEN PERSONALLY :)
Posted by Endzone on 2015-12-23 19:43:09
Sometimes the tactics dictate the strategy.
Posted by thoralf on 2015-12-23 20:18:03
As the old Richard Teichmann said, "Chess is 99 percent tactics.” Contemporary chess engines proved him right.
The dichotomy strategy/tactics comes military theorists. There's a problem at the conceptual level for games. Tactics is opposed to positional play, while strategy is opposed to combinatorial play.
I'd say that BB is mostly strategical because pulling up combinations is hard.
The dichotomy strategy/tactics comes military theorists. There's a problem at the conceptual level for games. Tactics is opposed to positional play, while strategy is opposed to combinatorial play.
I'd say that BB is mostly strategical because pulling up combinations is hard.
Posted by Bloodfeast on 2015-12-23 21:30:31
I was asked a hile back to describe Blood bowl and I replied it to be a turnbased strategic fantasyfootballgame partly based on luck!
However I consider a strategy with an orc team is to bash the opponents and as a tactic to eliminate the positionals first...kinda!
However I consider a strategy with an orc team is to bash the opponents and as a tactic to eliminate the positionals first...kinda!
Posted by NerdBird on 2015-12-23 22:14:46
A lot of people have the same strategy as they have tactics; kill all mens.
Posted by PaddyMick on 2015-12-24 00:47:10
So strategy is what you aim to achieve when you sit down at the table, and tactics is playing the hands you are dealt?
Posted by Jeffro on 2015-12-24 01:57:41
I'm having a hard time thinking how one goes about implementing a strategy without tactics. Seems like tactics would just be the microcosm of an overall strategy.
Strategy = Kill all mens
Tactics involved: maximizing blocks and skills that help remove players
Strategy = Elfball their nuts off
Tactics involved: pressuring the ball and using skills that move the ball
It's both... derp?
Strategy = Kill all mens
Tactics involved: maximizing blocks and skills that help remove players
Strategy = Elfball their nuts off
Tactics involved: pressuring the ball and using skills that move the ball
It's both... derp?
Posted by thoralf on 2015-12-24 02:02:12
> [I]n general, Clausewitz recognized only two levels of war: strategic -- the use of battles to achieve the military and political objective of the war; and tactical -- the art of winning battles. He saw the conduct of operations as an integral part of strategy, or the art of war, but he used the terms "art of war"--Kriegskunst, "strategy"--Strategie, and "conduct of war"--Kriegführung, almost interchangably. But, in Books VI-VIII, which reflect most of his mature theories, he focused almost exclusively on the conduct of operations, or the practical excution of strategy. These books contain a number of observations concerning "campaign plans"--Feldzugsplanen, "theaters of war"--Kriegstheater, "individual armies' zones of operations"--einzelnen Heergebiete, and "principles for the execution of strategy"--Grundsätze der Mittel und Wege as they applied to defense and attack and to limited and unlimited war--hence, the term applied strategy.
http://www.clausewitz.com/readings/Echevarria/APSTRAT1.htm
http://www.clausewitz.com/readings/Echevarria/APSTRAT1.htm
Posted by Endzone on 2015-12-24 13:51:59
Tactics are what determine the best option in a specific situation e.g. "If I go there, then there, then roll that dice, then that one, I get the ball - and that's a better option than going there, then there, then there and rolling that dice and blocking him."
Strategy is the overall plan. e.g. "I am stronger and have higher armour than my opponent, but slower and less agile. I will fight a war off attrition whilst keeping the ball safe within a cage consisting of as many of play players as possible."
The tactics are the implementation of the strategy but also sometimes the tactics dictate the strategy. E.g. the defensive strategy for the drive may have started as "I will hold the line whilst injuring his players." but in a given situation if the tactics available allow a good chance of a sack and steal the strategy might become "I will steal the ball, form a cage, then score."
Both strategy and tactics are essential. Without the successful application of tactics the realisation of the strategy is less likely and without a clear strategy directionless tactical play will not add up to more than the sum of it's parts.
The more mobile agile races (e.g. elves, skaven, vampires, slann etc.) often lend themselves to more tactical plays whereas the slower, tougher teams (Orcs, Dwaves, Khemri etc.) tend to fight a more positional game. Individual coach preference for tactics over strategy or vice versa can indicate racial preferences.
Strategy is the overall plan. e.g. "I am stronger and have higher armour than my opponent, but slower and less agile. I will fight a war off attrition whilst keeping the ball safe within a cage consisting of as many of play players as possible."
The tactics are the implementation of the strategy but also sometimes the tactics dictate the strategy. E.g. the defensive strategy for the drive may have started as "I will hold the line whilst injuring his players." but in a given situation if the tactics available allow a good chance of a sack and steal the strategy might become "I will steal the ball, form a cage, then score."
Both strategy and tactics are essential. Without the successful application of tactics the realisation of the strategy is less likely and without a clear strategy directionless tactical play will not add up to more than the sum of it's parts.
The more mobile agile races (e.g. elves, skaven, vampires, slann etc.) often lend themselves to more tactical plays whereas the slower, tougher teams (Orcs, Dwaves, Khemri etc.) tend to fight a more positional game. Individual coach preference for tactics over strategy or vice versa can indicate racial preferences.
Posted by tussock on 2015-12-25 14:59:13
Dictionary definition: strategy is your team, and tactics is your players.
A series of actions toward a plan for the whole team is strategy. This runs from picking your roster and play environment in the first place right through to making the choice to stall or not depending on your position.
Tactics is the order you move the players, the blocks you do and don't take, safe moves first, going for certain hits on vulnerable players before the score, deciding to use the RR now or hold it for later. Who you field, who you don't save with the apothecary, and ultimately skill choices on your players.
It's not a strategy to take strip ball on a Wardancer, it just allows different tactics to be employed toward the strategy of quickly turning over the ball and scoring on defence early in the game. It may even open up the strategy of choosing to kick.
A series of actions toward a plan for the whole team is strategy. This runs from picking your roster and play environment in the first place right through to making the choice to stall or not depending on your position.
Tactics is the order you move the players, the blocks you do and don't take, safe moves first, going for certain hits on vulnerable players before the score, deciding to use the RR now or hold it for later. Who you field, who you don't save with the apothecary, and ultimately skill choices on your players.
It's not a strategy to take strip ball on a Wardancer, it just allows different tactics to be employed toward the strategy of quickly turning over the ball and scoring on defence early in the game. It may even open up the strategy of choosing to kick.
Posted by pythrr on 2015-12-27 07:54:10
strategy is what you want to do
tactics are how you accomplish this
tactics are how you accomplish this