Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-07-18 11:25:46

Same could be said for Dodge/Tackle in a way. All the other counter skills actively do something when the thing they counter is not present.

Posted by Endzone on 2015-07-18 11:34:27

Yes Jimmy, you are right. There is no counter to Tackle - which is also damage dealing skill. I would also add the buff to Stunty so it negated Tackle as in some Leagues. This would give the Stunty teams a bit more chance.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-07-18 11:39:28

Not at all. A counter skill with no utility is terrible. The last thing there needs to be is a counter to tackle. Tackle should be buffed(and probably dropped from Dorfs) so that it actually actively does something like every other skill in the game.

Posted by Endzone on 2015-07-18 11:49:47

I disagree. Dodge is such a powerful skill that Tackle is a pwerfeul skill as it is - I don't think Tackle needs to be added to. I do agree that the Dwarf, Chaos Dwarf and Amazon team rosters need revisiting though. Perhaps Dwarf Longbeards and Chaos Dwarves should start with Iron Skin instead of Tackle and Amazon Linewomen with Sidestep and/or Fend instead of Dodge as part of a broader rework of the Amazon roster.

Posted by Wreckage on 2015-07-18 12:06:36

Block and Dodge counter (to a not small degree) any block and blitz related bash skills.

I'm not a big fan of pure counter skills. They only work properly in a diverse environment with fixed schedule. A format that doesn't even work for BB in round robin leagues because you still can circumvent deadlines and avoid matches.

Iron Skill as a skill that purely affects claw, a skill two thirds of all teams can't even pick if they wanted to, does not sound like a good design choice for me.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-07-18 12:07:31

Yes Dodge is so ridiculously powerful that taking a bad skill is essential.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-07-18 12:08:42

BTW the answer you are looking for is +AV, apply that after Claw reduces it to 7.

Posted by Roland on 2015-07-18 13:38:50

I miss spikes...

Posted by MattDakka on 2015-07-18 14:22:54

"Iron Skill as a skill that purely affects claw, a skill two thirds of all teams can't even pick if they wanted to."
Yes, too bad that in MM people use a lot of clawpomb teams, so Claw is not a rare sight at all.
I like the Iron Skin idea but I think that the +1 AV (the stat increase) applied post-Claw AV reduction, as Jimmy said, would be more elegant than a skill.

Posted by MattDakka on 2015-07-18 14:24:46

Dodge is so powerful that Box and Cyanide MM are plagued by Dodge spamming teams, it's terrible and gamebreaking, unlike the balanced Clawpomb.
Please nerf Dodge 2015! It sucks all the fun from the game!

Posted by Lorebass on 2015-07-18 16:10:36

Sounds like Matt mistaked a 4 letter word for his... more lettered word.

Posted by Kam on 2015-07-18 17:05:40

AV6 counters Claw.

Also, what's the counter to Jump Up? Or Big Hand? Or Catch? :D

Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-07-18 17:22:14

What counters have counters?

All of them? Because not taking a skill makes the counter useless. That's why rookies are the best players in the game.

Now, let's see if we can get some traction on "Anti-Tackle - Elves need the LOVE" :)

Posted by PaddyMick on 2015-07-18 17:36:46

Better still be to have claw just add +1 to the armour roll and MB add +1 to the injury roll, only. Coaches would still take both, and it would be an indirect nerf to PO. Elves would still be killed in sufficient numbers as you'd see a lot more Tackle as 2nd skill.

Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-07-18 17:47:48

Horrible idea. Make it the other way around. MB armor, Claw inj.

Because really, the Chaos teams shouldn't be the only races able to reduce armor.

Posted by Wreckage on 2015-07-18 18:40:32

I love the idea of +av countering claw. The stat up might see a real renaissance.

Posted by MattDakka on 2015-07-18 18:43:11

AV 6 is countered by the average armour roll of 7, you don't even need a skill.

Posted by garyt1 on 2015-07-18 18:43:59

I think mblow should be kept as it is but make claw just +1 armour. A weaker skill but still has power when combined with mighty blow. Why should high armour teams have such a disadvantage anyway. Ok people previously used Orcs and Dwarfs more but did they also win a lot more?
Or allow armour increases to apply after claw. That would help a bit and some players that start at av9 would then take extra armour.

Posted by MattDakka on 2015-07-18 19:38:58

Mighty Blow is powerful on its own, I personally would either allow only S4+ players to take it or leave it like now but affecting AV only, not injury.

Claw +1 to armour roll?
Only if 7 is the lowest AV post-Claw modifier, otherwise too many AV 7 and lower teams would be destroyed by it, and the low AV teams already struggle enough in a bashy environment.

Posted by fidius on 2015-07-18 20:42:11

Tackle as a counter to Dodge is probably the worst case of heavy-handed blunt-instrument rules in the game. It's the source of many ills, especially Amazon and Stunty, but also overpowered Gutter Runners and Wardancers.

I'd split both skills into their compoments, and then maybe add a bonus to the anti-dodge, eg. requires extra 1 MV to escape, to make it worth taking. Then you give the anti-dodge Tackle to Dwarves, and the anti-Stumbles-Dodge Tackle to Dwarf Blitzers. Give Zons only the anti-Stumbles Dodge. Give Gutter Runners and Wardancers only the dodging Dodge.

Then for Claw I'd make it apply after MB not before, and allow +AV to work (as a sort of Toughness). I also like the idea of non-M players being able to get a Claw-like skill but not as good. Say Shiv (on doubles for most), which when you use it comes with the risk of getting ejected for using a weapon. There also should be an immunity skill, say Impervious (E), for Treemen and Deathrollers.

MB could be moved to E for Big Guys only, but then you split MB into its components too: General gets the +1 AV, Strength gets the +1 Inj. This would spread out the damage a bit, make Linemen able to get damage skills, give BGs the ability to double-up on MB to some extent (half of it on doubles), etc. Then you give Mummies and Tomb Guardians the +AV version instead of MB. (Maybe you revert TGs back to Mummies too.)

PO you make risky, with a chance at armour break and turnover, and the less Strength you have the more risky it is. Also I'd force it back to the AV roll stage no matter when you use it.

Posted by Catalyst32 on 2015-07-18 20:58:51

Let's just get rid of Tackle altogether so that CLPOMB coaches that refuse to take enough of it to beat Elves like a drum will have a legitimate gripe with how OP Dodge is with ag4. Most of the people complaining about that obviously think they don't need Tackle anyway.
Give Dorfs Fend as a starting skill to compensate for Tackle being removed from the game.

Posted by Wreckage on 2015-07-19 00:28:31

I wouldn't mind if we could get equipment with effects similar to skills.
When I started playing around age 12/13 I also always liked the idea of long term saving goals like buying an own stadium and such...

Ah well, I should probably ask over at cyanide for this stuff... they seem to be more open to the fluffier crazier stuff :)

Posted by PainState on 2015-07-19 00:49:17

The obvious counter skill to Claw is a +STAT boost called +AV.

Replace how claw works: reduces AV to 7 + # of +AV buffs.

So +AV is the counter to Claw and now all of a sudden +AV is a viable upgrade because the +AV bonus on a AV7 player is not negated by claw.

Posted by PainState on 2015-07-19 00:51:49

As a side effect +AV then is also a counter to MightyBlow.

Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-07-19 00:59:51

I'm so happy none of you are going to make any official Blood Bowl rules.